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DF Chris Remo

Episode 2: A Promise of Infinite Possibility

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Seeing how the showed how he played Day of the tentacle (and only that one) does that mean that he took it from that game the way you had multiple playable worlds wich are connected? Will the guy and the girl be able to pass each other stuff to solve puzzles like with the toilet in day of the tentacle?

Well i'm already stoked to see where it's going.

and other thing is:

1. I really don't think it's nostalgia like ron said. They still play it and love it cause of the characters the story the music was and still are great in those games. although the graphics and game mechanics are outdated

2. I also don't think puzzles are antiquated. Just those kind of Tomb raider/Mechanarium/Mist kind of puzzles where you actually have a puzzle just for the sake of the puzzle. I think a good puzzle shouldn't be

actually noticed by the player as a puzzle it should be a problem he has in this world he moves around in. Like in monkey island: Need Sword. So i get a job at the circus to have the money to buy one. Its more like a live obstical to overcome than a puzzle. I hope i was able to express ok what i mean ^_^

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I already love this game, so proud to be a backer!

I really like the concept, which reminded me an old prog italian (also translated in english) album ("Felona e Sorona" from "Le Orme").

Thanks to all DF and 2PP for this amazing experience!

Edit: oh about the inventory and puzzles, I LOVE those and I think every adventure fan feels the same way, picking up a new item and thinking "how could I use this?" has always been awesome...

Tim and Ron remember you are the ones who created the most amazing adventure games ever, don't forget about that! ;)

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The parallel worlds and the boy and the girl, made me immediately think of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. Can't wait to hear more though.

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Very nice vid. I see that you also did some promoting for Spicy Horse which rocks. Just like they did in Alice Madness Returns with the hidden Raz statue.

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I think the other thing that ensures there'll be plenty of puzzles for us to enjoy apart from what's already been said is the setting itself. You only have to hear what the game is about in broad terms for it to already suggest all sorts of interesting puzzles involving how one world affects the other. If they didn't want to do that sort of thing, then I would wonder why they'd choose an adventure game to tell this sort of story. My guess is that those pages are already full of cool ideas about how the worlds can interact in all sorts of neat puzzling ways, as well as the story stuff that was mentioned.

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Awesomeness!!! Love the idea!!!

I want more sausage factory!!!

I want the sausage right in my face.

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I know it is probably redundant to say, but watching this process is more than worth the price of admission. I feel like the adventure is us. Double Fine, you guys and gals. Double fine.

Me too.

I'm one of the people he was talking about at the end of the video. I probably wouldn't have contributed if they weren't going to film/document the development process.

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Don't be afraid of having a romance/love element. Lots of people dismiss it because it's rarely (almost never) done well in games, or maybe cause they're just too manly men, but secretly we all do respond to it emotionally. Japanese games seem to be the only ones that include romance as a regular element. We have it in every single movie and TV show but for whatever reason, it's not common in games. But as games like To the Moon show, serious themes and emotions can be done well and add a whole lot of emotional attachment to the story.

As for puzzles, I think the key is immersion. For me, adventure games are all about immersion. Good puzzles add to that feeling (Colonel's Bequest, concept-wise, is the best example I can think of), while bad puzzles detract from it (7th Guest......any hidden object game....etc).

Oh and I love the two worlds boy/girl idea, it made me think of Korean films like Failan and Il Mare (it's a whole genre over there).

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A game with a boy and a girl? Aww..... ;)

I like the updates and am very interested in seeing the game developed!

I do like adventure games too- Full throttle was one of my favorite games as a kid.

Puzzles can be tricky (pun intended). Some of them are bad (click all over the screen in hopes of intersecting a less than visible object), or overly complicated (Of course, the rubber band, ice cream cone and the toilet paper roll make a nuclear bomb!), but they can be good when they actually make sense in regard to the current place in the story.

Lost in Time was a pretty good adventure game with puzzles, where most didn't take too long to figure out, but they also made sense.

I'll be most interested in the story, and humor. I think the humor in Monkey Island and Full throttle were some of the selling points.

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Good video - but also frustrating at points.

The main frustration was the fact that he was sitting down with non-Adventure fans and asking for their feedback. Obviously, you want to hear both sides of the coin (I may have mixed metaphors there), but they're not the audience that he is supposedly catering to. The guy who said no to puzzles? Gee whiz.

I hope it doesn't turn out to be a Machinarium-type adventure game. It's alright, but gee it's just repetitive. It's more of a puzzle game than an adventure game. An adventure game gives you a fully fleshed out world and story that features puzzles. A puzzle game is sorta the vice versa of that.

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Comment #1 (from when he first introduces the game idea) "DO IT! DO IT!"

Comment #2 (from end credits) "Thank you everyone, so much!"

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The problem with the puzzles in some of those old adventure games is that they often required a mostly nonsensical approach to solve them. I think a good puzzle should always make sense. Nothing is more frustrating than a puzzle founded on such ridiculous logic that the only way to solve it is with luck, process of elimination, or cheating. There is no joy in using a game guide to solve a puzzle, but there's also no shame when the puzzle is playing by unfair rules.

That said, I'm also a fan of puzzles with multiple solutions. Multiple outcomes that affect the trajectory of the story would be pretty amazing, and if done in a way that isn't too obvious, could bring back that sense of "infinite possibility" by actually offering up some possibilities.

But I'm just thinking out loud (quietly, at my computer). These videos have been fantastic so far, keep it up!

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Good video - but also frustrating at points.

The main frustration was the fact that he was sitting down with non-Adventure fans and asking for their feedback. Obviously, you want to hear both sides of the coin (I may have mixed metaphors there), but they're not the audience that he is supposedly catering to. The guy who said no to puzzles? Gee whiz.

I hope it doesn't turn out to be a Machinarium-type adventure game. It's alright, but gee it's just repetitive. It's more of a puzzle game than an adventure game. An adventure game gives you a fully fleshed out world and story that features puzzles. A puzzle game is sorta the vice versa of that.

Well, they're people who have all recently made games which have had adventure elements to them or at least have tried to tell stories in different ways. I think he was just trying to get lots of different perspectives on what was enjoyable about adventure games, so he talked to

*Adventure game fans that work for him

*Writers he's worked with in the past

*People making different sorts of story games

*People making modern adventure games.

*Ron Gilbert

*And of course, he has access to these forums and reads them.

A good spread of people to talk to. Should always make sure to learn from as many people as possible, it's the best way to ensure you're not mentally running in circles. In the end he clearly decided that this game needed to be something that did have puzzles in it, even though he admires the approach Sworcery took to their thing. It can't hurt to get the opinions of a wide range of people, but it can help you get unstuck from your comfort zone and make the great things it's possible to make by exploring a little further.

I've never made anything of any worth when my starting point has been: 'okay, I want to make something like that cool thing I made before'. All my best work comes from directions I don't expect, and I think that's true for a lot of people. But that doesn't mean that the new thing can't still evoke similar feelings to the old thing. It's just that you have to come at it sideways, or it'll forever elude you.

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SUBTITLES! PLEASE!

Yep! It would be a great help for worldwide backers!

Great video though! Can't wait until the next updates. =)

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Wow, I love the idea of having a boy and a girl in different worlds, or in the same world but different realities. This concept is full of possibilities. You could even add a third level there, some kind of interconnecting world they could share, like their dreams or something like that. I´m really eager to know how this develops. Thanks a lot for sharing the creative process with us. Amazingly insightful :).

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Really it's less of a question if puzzles in adventure games are antiquated so much as how do you make puzzles challenging and interesting without completely destroying flow or worse making the player drop the game from sheer frustration/disinterest. In my mind it's a combination of extensive testing to make sure your puzzles make logical sense and making people really want to solve the puzzles. In my experience the difference between dropping an adventure game at a really obtuse puzzle and pushing past it lies with a combination of the various non-gameplay elements - writing, art style, music, and VA - sucking you in with atmosphere and empathizing with the protag to really make it feel like their problems are your problems.

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SUBTITLES! PLEASE!

Yep! It would be a great help for worldwide backers!

Great video though! Can't wait until the next updates. =)

Subtitles are in the works. We had to find an agency to handle it.

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Really it's less of a question if puzzles in adventure games are antiquated so much as how do you make puzzles challenging and interesting without completely destroying flow or worse making the player drop the game from sheer frustration/disinterest. In my mind it's a combination of extensive testing to make sure your puzzles make logical sense and making people really want to solve the puzzles. In my experience the difference between dropping an adventure game at a really obtuse puzzle and pushing past it lies with a combination of the various non-gameplay elements - writing, art style, music, and VA - sucking you in with atmosphere and empathizing with the protag to really make it feel like their problems are your problems.

Yeah, the thing I loved about the puzzles in the old LucasArts adventure games post Monkey Island as opposed to Maniac Mansion and the Sierra adventure games was that I always felt that even when the puzzles were hard to solve, it was nice to just exist in the world, and spend a long time in one place, getting to know it while figuring out its secrets. In other adventure games, it always felt like the game was trying to thwart me. If the puzzles are too easy, I don't get the chance to get to know the environment like I do when I'm at a loss and really start to explore, talk to people, notice things. If they're too obscure, of course, there's a danger of feeling cheated when the solution comes.

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I think every attempt to ‘innovate’ adventure games so far has failed; point and click controls with inventory system and a cycle pointer just seem to make the best experience.

I’d love to see something that makes adventure games better and brings them into a new level; touch controls are certainly an interesting and still capable way to control an adventure game, but they not really compatible with anything but the DS and Smart Phones/Tablets and probably the Wii U, the main market has always being the PC, and there’s already ‘hidden object’ (would be a travesty to call them adventure games) casual games for some of those markets.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is a bad thing, you have a genuinely good idea go for it, but if you try to force it out you’re only going to end up hurting your creation.

This particular project should not have space for experiments, is supposed to be a flagship for the return of adventure games, as we remember them as we still play them today (some of us never stopped).

You take puzzles off an adventure game you may as well call it a visual novel, there’s already a genre like that from Japan, and Dear Esther would be a modern western interpretation of that genre, I want to get stuck and I want to pixel hunt, that’s what makes point and click adventures games what they are.

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Let me pile on - love the concept, and these videos - holy hell. I have a new respect for the heart that Tim puts into his work and am extremely impressed with the team at 2 Player Productions for their ability to show it.

Maybe you can just do a reality TV show to fund your next project...

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That was amazing! Thanks 2pp for making another awesome video.

Also I really hope the dual story setting stays because that sounds amazing. I hope it will have different endings.

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I'm quite happy to see the game retain some, or alot of puzzles, but I am begging you, have a look at the newer games from pendulo, with a hint system and a hand holder for those times when you just cant see whats next. Even if it's random things like "Where would i find water?" it's something that gives the player an idea of what the hell they are meant to be doing. I spent so much money on monkey island hint phone line. I was a good child, my version of a massive phone bill was running it up £50 but I guess that's 100 dollars. I'm not a smart cookie in that respect and point and click adventures tend to be too smart for their own good. Sometimes I just want to sit back and let the story take me with it. Like "To the moon" 3 hours long, only a pound or 2 cheaper than what you have charged in the kickstarter campaign and it was a pleasure with some traditional puzzles and an amazing heart wrenching story.I want the humour, the dialogue, the visuals. I don't want to have to get a(nother) degree to play an adventure game. Good luck.

ps. Anyone who completed all Myst games without a guide, hats off to you.

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I think every attempt to ‘innovate’ adventure games so far has failed; point and click controls with inventory system and a cycle pointer just seem to make the best experience.

I’d love to see something that makes adventure games better and brings them into a new level; touch controls are certainly an interesting and still capable way to control an adventure game, but they not really compatible with anything but the DS and Smart Phones/Tablets and probably the Wii U, the main market has always being the PC, and there’s already ‘hidden object’ (would be a travesty to call them adventure games) casual games for some of those markets.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is a bad thing, you have a genuinely good idea go for it, but if you try to force it out you’re only going to end up hurting your creation.

This particular project should not have space for experiments, is supposed to be a flagship for the return of adventure games, as we remember them as we still play them today (some of us never stopped).

You take puzzles off an adventure game you may as well call it a visual novel, there’s already a genre like that from Japan, and Dear Esther would be a modern western interpretation of that genre, I want to get stuck and I want to pixel hunt, that’s what makes point and click adventures games what they are.

Again, briefly - Maniac Mansion - innovated entire genre's interface. Monkey Island - revolutionised puzzle design and comedy writing in games. DOTT - absolutely unprecedented animation work. Full Throttle - interface innovations aplenty. The only thing that makes you think these games weren't innovative is that you're looking them through a 15-20 year lens. At the time these WERE the innovators. Part of the reason all these games were so good is because they were constantly asking: what can we do this time which pushes us harder, works better, serves the story in ways we weren't able to achieve with older technology?

Could they have made Full Throttle in 1992? No way. DOTT in 1989? Nuh-uh. Monkey Island before Maniac Mansion? Unlikely. It's innovation all the way down, and so the best way to make a game that's completely against the spirit of those old games would be to say 'well, let's just do that again'.

Sure, we want to feel how we felt when we played those old classics, but concentrating on them hard and trying to do that again is just about the worst way to accomplish such a thing.

"This particular project should not have space for experiments"? Nobody in the history of mankind has ever done anything creative without the freedom to experiment, and that involves taking in a whole range of perspectives, even ones you might not personally align with.

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Lastly, I didn't chip into this on earlier DFA threads, but music is super mega important. Iconic tunes like in the Monkey Island series stay with me to this day and I cherish those memories !

Yeah, agreed. I'm worried a bit because I'm not digging Terrence Lee's stuff at all. It all sounds like variations of the same generic thing, I don't know. I hope I enjoy the ost, other people seem to like his stuff so I guess that's good.

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So we have the first sniff of what the story is going to be about. the process is beginning to take shape. I am so excited.

I wonder if Tim will let us look at his notebook when the game is finished?

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Growing up through life as a kid everyone gives you these books that will help you, guide you, make you better.. i dont know something, maybe even just think a little. This epilog documentary needs to be broadcast and understood by the past and more importantly today's future. What I mean is maybe to start from square one and play some of these games to grasp some real knowledge about the basic idea of a great imagination and then watch this. Just the start but a great one.

thanks Double Fine :) this was worth it

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