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breanniebelle

I won't lie, I'm a little butt hurt about the Slacker Backer thing....

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They shouldn't, I don't think anyone was arguing that they should. Just that if, indeed, they are going to get the same as those who paid the $15 when the time limit was still going on, then maybe those that paid $15 should get a slight bump up.

We got two months of exclusive access to the backer forums before the slacker backers showed up, during which our feedback had an impact on the earliest (and arguably most crucial) moments of the game's conceptualisation. We already got our slight bonus.

Agreed. and I don't really think that $15 is somehow worth "more" just because you donated it in a certain time period.

If a friend asks you for money to make the months rent payment, giving him the money versus giving it to him 2 months down the line is the same thing? No.

well, if you want to go down that route.. when you paid $15 on Kickstarter Double Fine had to pay fees to both Kickstarter AND Paypal, so lost 10% of your pledge. They only lose 5% of the pledge through Paypal :P

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Such as? What exactly did feedback impact or change at this point in the game?

Well, for the most part it'll probably be a while before we know one way or another, it's not as though DF are posting the minutes and livestreams of their development meetings where they go over our feedback on a constant basis (nor would I expect them to).

But I do know one decision where our discussions were taken into account: letting Slacker Backers in. :)

Well, if you won't know how it affected the game for a while, then you don't know. And if you don't know, then how could you possibly use it in an argument? Don't just spout garbage without any basis in reality besides your assumptions.

Well, that's quite a difficult debate. Should we accept more money for our game? If there had been a SERIOUS backlash to that, then it's possible they would not have, but really? You think you twisted their arm to take in more money?

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Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't care either way, I just somewhat sympathized with ops position, that's all.

I thought "playing devil's advocate" usually entails arguing for a position you don't actually sympathise with?

Indeed, I don't. I think the more money towards the project, the better. I don't AGREE with OP, but I can understand where he is coming from.

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I don't mind the late comers getting in at the $15 level. But if we are relaxing the rules, I would have liked to have been given the chance as an early funder to now bump my contribution up to the $100 boxed copy level.

Anyone else?

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I don't mind the late comers getting in at the $15 level. But if we are relaxing the rules, I would have liked to have been given the chance as an early funder to now bump my contribution up to the $100 boxed copy level.

Anyone else?

That's an interesting thought...almost like an amnesty weekend. Early backers have a weekend to change their donation...

I don't think it would work well though...for example the t-shirts. They took orders and ordered them. Unless they over-ordered a ton in all the sizes they will have to RE-ORDER them. Speaking from someone who works in that industry, chances are they won't do this, because you get a certain price depending on the order you place. A big order gets a small price. Piece meal orders just don't work out well...so that would be a problem going in to that idea...

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You'd also have to make sure the pledges are only allowed to be bumped upwards ;) Of course, I guess since the money's already been collected that wouldn't be much of a problem...

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I don't mind the late comers getting in at the $15 level. But if we are relaxing the rules, I would have liked to have been given the chance as an early funder to now bump my contribution up to the $100 boxed copy level.

Anyone else?

That's an interesting thought...almost like an amnesty weekend. Early backers have a weekend to change their donation...

I don't think it would work well though...for example the t-shirts. They took orders and ordered them. Unless they over-ordered a ton in all the sizes they will have to RE-ORDER them. Speaking from someone who works in that industry, chances are they won't do this, because you get a certain price depending on the order you place. A big order gets a small price. Piece meal orders just don't work out well...so that would be a problem going in to that idea...

I think it should be possible for certain items that haven't been ordered yet, like the boxed game+documentary, poster etc. I'm sure a lot of the lower tier backers would raise their pledges which would result in a higher budget. I include myself in the category :P

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I honestly don't care about this because as far as I'm concerned, my role is to be a patron, just as patrons gave money to artists in the past in order to let those artists work without having to worry about starving.

If Double Fine goes away, I don't get any more Double Fine games. That is a Very Bad Thing. I would have given the hundred dollars I gave just for a copy of the game itself.

Frankly, if opening up pre-orders for other folks means that DF gets to make more money that they can then use to keep the lights on - and thus to give us more games - that is great news to me, and I don't much care when or how the money they get for this game rolls in. Just my $0.02.

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I don't mind the late comers getting in at the $15 level. But if we are relaxing the rules, I would have liked to have been given the chance as an early funder to now bump my contribution up to the $100 boxed copy level.

Anyone else?

That's an interesting thought...almost like an amnesty weekend. Early backers have a weekend to change their donation...

I don't think it would work well though...for example the t-shirts. They took orders and ordered them. Unless they over-ordered a ton in all the sizes they will have to RE-ORDER them. Speaking from someone who works in that industry, chances are they won't do this, because you get a certain price depending on the order you place. A big order gets a small price. Piece meal orders just don't work out well...so that would be a problem going in to that idea...

I think it should be possible for certain items that haven't been ordered yet, like the boxed game+documentary, poster etc. I'm sure a lot of the lower tier backers would raise their pledges which would result in a higher budget. I include myself in the category :P

As we are still in the early artwork phase, I am going to guess no printed / silkscreened merchandise has been ordered yet. I think an "amnesty weekend" is a great idea for the boxed/printed merchandise

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They shouldn't, I don't think anyone was arguing that they should. Just that if, indeed, they are going to get the same as those who paid the $15 when the time limit was still going on, then maybe those that paid $15 should get a slight bump up.

We got two months of exclusive access to the backer forums before the slacker backers showed up, during which our feedback had an impact on the earliest (and arguably most crucial) moments of the game's conceptualisation. We already got our slight bonus.

Agreed. and I don't really think that $15 is somehow worth "more" just because you donated it in a certain time period.

If a friend asks you for money to make the months rent payment, giving him the money versus giving it to him 2 months down the line is the same thing? No.

$15 is still $15, whether you donated it three months ago or yesterday. that's the tier you chose. i think the fact that people are expecting some sort of additional compensation now that DF is allowing even more people to participate and make this game better is just...ridiculous.

but that's just my opinion. Mostly I don't want this relatively minor issue to spoil the camaraderie in the forums.

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$15 is still $15, whether you donated it three months ago or yesterday. that's the tier you chose. i think the fact that people are expecting some sort of additional compensation now that DF is allowing even more people to participate and make this game better is just...ridiculous.

but that's just my opinion. Mostly I don't want this relatively minor issue to spoil the camaraderie in the forums.

Let me restate my position because it seems to be missing some folks.

I think it's -wonderful- that DF is opening up the gates for more backers. While DF is opening enrollment again, I would like to bump my level up, and if merch has not yet been ordered, why not?

The folks just coming in are essentially $0.00 level contributors "bumping up" to $15. Why not let the $15 folks bump up to $30 or from $30 to $100? It just means more funds for DF, and that's why we are all here to begin with.

-edit- what I am saying is I want to pay the difference of $85 for a the $100 boxed copy leve. I don't expect free stuff or some sort of reparation.

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$15 is still $15, whether you donated it three months ago or yesterday. that's the tier you chose. i think the fact that people are expecting some sort of additional compensation now that DF is allowing even more people to participate and make this game better is just...ridiculous.

but that's just my opinion. Mostly I don't want this relatively minor issue to spoil the camaraderie in the forums.

Let me restate my position because it seems to be missing some folks.

I think it's -wonderful- that DF is opening up the gates for more backers. While DF is opening enrollment again, I would like to bump my level up, and if merch has not yet been ordered, why not?

The folks just coming in are essentially $0.00 level contributors "bumping up" to $15. Why not let the $15 folks bump up to $30 or from $30 to $100? It just means more funds for DF, and that's why we are all here to begin with.

-edit- what I am saying is I want to pay the difference of $85 for a the $100 boxed copy leve. I don't expect free stuff or some sort of reparation.

man, i'm glad you clarified because that makes wayyyyyyy more sense.

I'm not sure what the logistics of doing something like that would be (could be that it's just wayyy too much trouble for DF), but I think it's a pretty good idea.

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Let me add another thing to the discussion. During the DFA kickstarter I was in an unexpected and what seemed like an impossible financial situation. Even 15$ was an effort at the time. Things have picked up now. If Double Fine will not open the top tiers even for a weekend or a short period of time to allow the folks in the lower levels to bump their pledges I will be intently watching ebay and other websites for the exclusive kickstarter merchandise that will pop up and sooner or later and I will be buying it, at whatever the price may be (quite high I imagine).

Now that money or a part of that money could go to Double Fine and not to someone who pledged in order to make a profit from the merchandise. Double fine can exclude the merchandise that has already been produced i.e. T-shirts and it can even be put at a higher price than the kickstarter tier. I don't want to force anyone's hand, I just wanted to explain my situation and to say that I really want to have those physical items one way or the other. I just think that this way is easier and I'm sure I'm not the only one who just couldn't pledge more at the time. Either way, no hard feelings.

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I am not going to judge you op, but I don't share your opinion. All in all, this is just giving other people the satisfaction that you had when you backed this project. It is not taking anything from you, and it is multiplying the people who can feel like a part of this project.

I do find it interesting and encouraging that people can have such wildly differing views on something. We sure are an interesting lot, and it is why I love humanity.

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The perks of paying into the project were based on the fact that the money needed to be in by a certain date. Pay such and such money by this date, get these perks. NOT, pay whenever you feel like it, that defeats the purpose of kickstarter.

I don't think it defeats the purpose of Kickstarter at all! The money needs to be in by a certain date not because it's some kind of 'limited time offer' for customers, but simply because there needs to be a fixed date at which the amount pledged is evaluated, to determine whether or not the project is green-lit, and so that backers know when their money is going to come out. Once a project is funded, the Kickstarter page has served it's purpose, and it's now entirely up to the people behind the project how they proceed. The exclusivity of rewards has nothing intrinsically to do with the Kickstarter model at all, and only exists if the people Kickstarting a project choose to offer it. Just as there is no reason someone couldn't offer already available products as rewards, there is no reason someone with a successful Kickstarter shouldn't be able to sell what they offered as rewards to more people elsewhere - unless exclusivity was specifically mentioned or implied, which is why this has become a point of contention in this case.

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I don't mind the late comers getting in at the $15 level. But if we are relaxing the rules, I would have liked to have been given the chance as an early funder to now bump my contribution up to the $100 boxed copy level.

Anyone else?

That's an interesting thought...almost like an amnesty weekend. Early backers have a weekend to change their donation...

I don't think it would work well though...for example the t-shirts. They took orders and ordered them. Unless they over-ordered a ton in all the sizes they will have to RE-ORDER them. Speaking from someone who works in that industry, chances are they won't do this, because you get a certain price depending on the order you place. A big order gets a small price. Piece meal orders just don't work out well...so that would be a problem going in to that idea...

I think it should be possible for certain items that haven't been ordered yet, like the boxed game+documentary, poster etc. I'm sure a lot of the lower tier backers would raise their pledges which would result in a higher budget. I include myself in the category :P

As we are still in the early artwork phase, I am going to guess no printed / silkscreened merchandise has been ordered yet. I think an "amnesty weekend" is a great idea for the boxed/printed merchandise

Posters and shirts have already gone to print.

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You really have to get over that puerile and actually a bit selfish mindset. I sold some stuff so i can pledge - everyone sacrificed in one way or another. DF asked if it's fine with the backers, the topic was many many pages long (and annoying) but the general vote was: "It's fine", so i guess you have to live with it.

I also have issues with these backer-forums, since most of the stuff written here is utter garbage, mindless blabber and nonsense, but i mostly just stay in the areas of the forum that are mostly ignored by backers, as i know that you people have fun here and i don't have the right to interfere with it, even though it goes against my personal liking, this is called mature behavior. Let them pledge if they want to pledge - in the end you will also profit from this step.

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Posters and shirts have already gone to print.

Thanks for the clarification, I am still interested in buying a boxed copy. :lol:

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I'm not fussed about the slacker backers especially as I pledged for this game when the total was far beyond the original target. I can see if you were one of the ones that pledged before the total had reached the original target that allowing others 'into the fold' would make you a little cheesed off - but really, the more that pay the bigger the pot of money the developers have to dip into, now that can't be a bad thing, surely?

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The perks of paying into the project were based on the fact that the money needed to be in by a certain date. Pay such and such money by this date, get these perks. NOT, pay whenever you feel like it, that defeats the purpose of kickstarter.

I don't think it defeats the purpose of Kickstarter at all! The money needs to be in by a certain date not because it's some kind of 'limited time offer' for customers, but simply because there needs to be a fixed date at which the amount pledged is evaluated, to determine whether or not the project is green-lit, and so that backers know when their money is going to come out. Once a project is funded, the Kickstarter page has served it's purpose, and it's now entirely up to the people behind the project how they proceed. The exclusivity of rewards has nothing intrinsically to do with the Kickstarter model at all, and only exists if the people Kickstarting a project choose to offer it. Just as there is no reason someone couldn't offer already available products as rewards, there is no reason someone with a successful Kickstarter shouldn't be able to sell what they offered as rewards to more people elsewhere - unless exclusivity was specifically mentioned or implied, which is why this has become a point of contention in this case.

I don't know whether people would agree, but I think I was one of the more vocal people expressing why I was opposed to the whole Slacker Backers idea, so I would like to congratulate you for being the post that changed my mind.

You don't get all the credit. These arguments have pretty much been expressed elsewhere already, but I needed time to mull it over in my mind, and this is the post where it all clicked.

My concern was that the Kickstarter model would be ruined, because I considered the exclusivity offered by the time limit to be part of that model. People raised the point that the time limit is only so that people have a guaranteed date when they could get their money back, but I was still not convinced because in that case, why not just open the page for donations forever once the target amount has been reached. I realize now that the date also helps the people asking for money, because they can put in the order for things like T-shirts once the Kickstarter has ended.

Therefore, I no longer have any concerns at all about the Kickstarter model being ruined and wholly welcome accept both the idea of Slacker Backers, and the people who have recently joined us as Slacker Backers.

I do, however, think that the exclusivity which was implied to people at the $15 dollar tier, exclusivity which has now been taken away, is a bit of a problem. All the arguments about why this doesn't ruin Kickstarter also convince me that the exclusivity was an accident and misinterpretation on the part of those who were disappointed by Slacker Backers, not something done on purpose. It still causes a bit of harm, but knowing everything that I do now, I think the good from allowing Slacker Backers overwhelming overpowers any negative effects.

Cheers.

Edit:

I meant to write outweigh, not overpower. I also still think the people who dismissed the original poster with one liners like saying the OP needed to stop being a special snowflake were kind of being jerks. I think the people who said things like, "I don't understand how anybody could consider this a bad thing," didn't think hard enough, but they weren't being jerks so I don't blame them so much. I could blame them for not reading all the arguments in this thread, but I really can't when the thread is so long. I think threads are flawed in this way, and I have ideas on how they could be improved, but that's a whole other topic.

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How do you all feel about it?

You don't deserve the sneering remarks in response to your post.

I empathize with you.

Some people who comment that the matter has been discussed on this forum, and that most people support DF's position to welcome slacker backers, don't understand that this could be a matter of principle. If I wanted to go back on a promise that I had made to a group of people, I would (try to) fulfill the promise even if only a single person would otherwise feel cheated. Dismissing the matter with something like 'DF asked and we said yes' is far too easy.

Several people commented (+1'd) that benefits for the studio are more important than our 'status' as backers ("special snowflake status more than they want to see a developer they love get more support"). I asked Greg how it would benefit the studio (see also this and this). I didn't get an answer, but Tim says in the pre-episode 2 video that the pre-order money will "make the game better [...] if we get enough money, we can add an animator, add a programmer". Since the budget is already $2,23 million, it's not inconceivable that some backers think: "Just let me keep my special snowflake status."

What about people who have only recently heard about the project? Well, that's how life works: not everybody always hears about everything. Why not extend the deadline and also call latecomers "backers", or simply call them "slacker backers"? Because that's not in the spirit of Kickstarter. It may be an unspoken rule, but exclusive for backers means exclusive to the Kickstarter project. Backers help to successfully raise the funding goal before the deadline. Some backers need to make personal sacrifices because of that deadline, but they get rewarded for their efforts. These exclusive perks in certain (most) reward tiers are there to persuade people to whip out their wallets now. That's how Kickstarter works: you want people to get involved, that's the whole idea.

It doesn't matter that it's 'just' the first reward tier, because it's a matter of principle. We're talking about 47,000+ backers. Each active forum member may represent hundreds of silent fans. And it's not like everyone agrees on the subject ("Whoa, this debated got pretty heated!"). How long will the pre-order thing last? Will it be $15 for the whole Kickstarter package until the game is being released? (Because "It’s never too late for ADVENTURE!")

You know, I didn't even feel strongly about this, but I don't like how some folks ridicule breanniebelle's (OP's) post.

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So it would be better to shut out more funding for the project in order to let people maintain their perceived "status" from Kickstarter? In all honestly, I think you are taking the spirit of Kickstarter out of context. It was never meant as a place where people gain a special "snowflake" status.. it was a place where people could come to find help in backing a project. The idea was to help "kickstart" projects into being. I don't think the intention was to mean "if you use Kickstarter, then you can't utilize any other funding drives for your project. As to the exlusives to backers- they still had that... they had the full choice of tiers to choose from. Late backers didn't. And sacrifices could be made by anyone at anytime in order to fund a project, who is to say that $15 this month was anymore difficult than $15 next month for some people.

And what about people who knew about the project but couldn't back it because of finances, so missed out? But now have the money and still want to be a part of it? You'd shut them out because of that?

Seriously, the entitlement is disappointing to some extent.

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I'm mad that people prefer their special snowflake status more than they want to see a developer they love get more support to make this project as awesome as possible.

^ Pretty much this.

I'm bnot really "mad" though at those people, I just can't understand it.

DF can sell as many backer things as much as they want, I never backed this project to feel special, I backed it because I think it will be a cool game.

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It was never meant as a place where people gain a special "snowflake" status..

Well, it's a combination.

Pretty much all Kickstarter projects I've seen use the rewards as an extra incitement to potential backers.

Like access to a private forum, beta access, a lower price than the retail version, and so on.

The word "exclusive" has been used like a gazillion times by Tim/DF.

Their Kickstarter front page, for example, says: "2 Player Productions will be documenting the creative process and releasing monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers."

I could go through all their videos and posts to give you all exact citations...

And I do agree with Ritchie.Thai that "[...] if they said backer, it is implied that they are referring to Kickstarter backers".

I backed for more than $15, so the issue doesn't affect me personally.

But I do sympathize with OP's frustration, and I do understand there could be ethical concerns.

I don't really like the slick way that Tim generalized the issue in the pre-episode 2 video.

I'm not "butt hurt" and I too want to welcome the new backers!

Lots of cool threads for you new folks to go through.

This (outdated) overview may be useful.

Check out some of the polls mentioned in that thread. :cheese:

Tim is a smart guy, I doubt all the pre-order money will go the DFA.

It may be better to save some of it for a rainy day.

DF has a bright future, but you never know and $2,23 million is enough for the DFA.

Anyways, my last post in this thread, so much stuff to do in real life. :-P

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Tim is a smart guy, I doubt all the pre-order money will go the DFA.

It may be better to save some of it for a rainy day.

DF has a bright future, but you never know and $2,23 million is enough for the DFA.

Anyways, my last post in this thread, so much stuff to do in real life. :-P

I'm not going to go into this more except to say that I think the advantages of preorders outweigh any perceived disadvantages by so much that DF would be crazy not to do it (even if it does make them 'liars', which I disagree with in the first play)

But as for this last point, while 2.23 million is definitely as you put it enough for DFA, it's also not loads. There is plenty of room for growth there. They'd have to put a lot more money into the project before they genuinely stopped being able to find good ways to spend it, so I'd expect quite a lot of the money will go to the project.

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It was never meant as a place where people gain a special "snowflake" status..

Well, it's a combination.

Pretty much all Kickstarter projects I've seen use the rewards as an extra incitement to potential backers.

Like access to a private forum, beta access, a lower price than the retail version, and so on.

The word "exclusive" has been used like a gazillion times by Tim/DF.

Their Kickstarter front page, for example, says: "2 Player Productions will be documenting the creative process and releasing monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers."

I could go through all their videos and posts to give you all exact citations...

And I do agree with Ritchie.Thai that "[...] if they said backer, it is implied that they are referring to Kickstarter backers".

I backed for more than $15, so the issue doesn't affect me personally.

But I do sympathize with OP's frustration, and I do understand there could be ethical concerns.

I don't really like the slick way that Tim generalized the issue in the pre-episode 2 video.

I'm not "butt hurt" and I too want to welcome the new backers!

Lots of cool threads for you new folks to go through.

This (outdated) overview may be useful.

Check out some of the polls mentioned in that thread. :cheese:

Tim is a smart guy, I doubt all the pre-order money will go the DFA.

It may be better to save some of it for a rainy day.

DF has a bright future, but you never know and $2,23 million is enough for the DFA.

Anyways, my last post in this thread, so much stuff to do in real life. :-P

I hear what you and others are saying, I guess I just don't see why people who supposedly like Double Fine and the Adventure Style of gaming would want to refuse more people joining in the cause. If it is simply because they don't want new pledges seeing and partaking in the "backer" forums or seeing the videos? I think that's pretty petty. I guess being an older fart I just don't see the need for "exclusivity" on some things since at the end of the day, we are all fans, and a year or so after the game is released, no one will remember anything in regard the campaign anyway :P It really is the "darker side" of Kickstarter imho...

That said... if it is really going to cause DF grief with some of the backers, then being a "Slacker Backer" myself I have no issues if they rescind the offer of adding us to the "Kickstarter" forums. Even without access to the forum I still would have jumped and pledged my $15 to Double Fine to support DFA. The digital download of the title and the chance to support Tim/DF is all I really needed to make me happy :D

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I'm not going to fault you for feeling that way. I've had occasions in my life when money was short and I gave up something else so that I could get in on something I was sure I wouldn't be able to get if I didn't cough up the money right then and there...only to find out the "right then and there" part turned out to be inaccurate.

Case in point: One concert I absolutely wanted to see and was told by multiple sources would sell out if I didn't get the tickets immediately if not sooner...only to find out they were still selling tickets at the door when the show started, and I must admit I felt a little annoyed at first.

BUT...I still got in to see the show, I didn't get any LESS for my money, and I still enjoyed it, so I forgot all about being annoyed pretty quickly. Now if I had gotten to the show and they'd oversold so many tickets at the door that I wasn't able to get in despite having bought the ticket in advance...now THAT would've been much more upsetting.

But since you asked how other backers feel about this particular case of "okay, maybe you didn't have to actually pay right then and there"...I was originally going to say that personally I could care less, but then I realized that the phrases "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less," despite apparently being opposites, mean pretty much the same thing, and therefore the only way I can properly conclude this statement is to end the sentence with the wrong fusebox.

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TLDR: I'm mad that Slacker Backers are getting the same perks as us $15 Kickstarters.

/endrant

I donated $30, but I'll support your righteous anger. You all should get something unique. A picture of Tim Schafer giving you the finger perhaps?

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I don't understand why people are upset. You're getting what you were promised, this doesn't affect any of the backers whatsoever.

Guess what? At some point people are going to be buying this game for $5 on a Steam sale. It's Double Fine's content, they can sell it to whoever they want.

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