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What makes adventure games special? Ron Gilbert's Ep2 Question...

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TL;DR - What makes adventure games special/interesting for you? Sans nostalgia?

Ron Gilbert in the latest episode talks about what makes adventure games special, apart from the simple nostalgia that everyone enjoys? What made them special back then?

The reason I personally found adventure game's special was exactly that, the "adventure" - I felt a tremendous amount of freedom to explore, because the game's had me in control of so many different things. I could attempt to mix and match objects, I could select different dialogue options, I could traverse a variety of areas on the map, I could even try to "push" an angry pirate and this would illicit a funny little line of dialogue I would never have heard had I never tried that action.

Adventure games, are, in a way, giving you control over actions and items that most game's just put in cut scenes, this gives you a tremendous feeling of freedom and allows you to explore so many more different things.

I remember in Curse of Monkey Island, when I pushed Murray off the plank into the sea, it was such an exciting discovery, because my previous experience with games had never even let me "apply canon stick to talking skull" to further the story. And discovering that is incredibly fun.

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At some point Tim also expressed concern that people might not really love adventure games, but the nostalgia. Personally, the only adventure games I played when I was younger were King's Quest VI and some Humongous Entertainment games. I sort of liked the King's Quest game, but it certainly didn't make up a majority of my childhood, and same goes for the Humongous games. I also hated dying all the time in King's Quest.

I personally regained interest in adventure games because for a long time I thought that the parts of RPGs that are most fun for me are when you're in a town talking to people and exploring, not fighting the monsters. I'm interested in making games myself and have made some, so I would wonder what a game that consists of only the town portion of RPGs would be like.

At some point, I also started getting annoyed at all the violence in video games, including games like Mario and Kirby. It's not that I'm against violence, it's that I'm against the lack of variety. Every video game is about killing things. That's not universally true, but there is a ridiculous number of games about killing things. And the games with good stories (that aren't adventure games) tend involve killing things.

So at some point I realized that the type of game I was looking for which wasn't about killing things and was like the town portion of RPGs is adventure games.

I like just exploring and talking to people and seeing the story unfold. For me, puzzles are secondary. I don't know how I'd feel about an adventure game with no puzzles, because it might feel like I'm just watching a movie that needs me to press buttons now an then at that point. I'm planning to make a game like that eventually, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Something that bothers me about adventure games is what a pariah the protagonist tends to be. You're always doing things to trick other people to get what you want. Other people in adventure games tend to be pretty unhelpful too. You always need to do something for them to convince them to help you. I'd be interested in a game where everyone's trying to help each other and the problems come from elsewhere.

So those are my thoughts.

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I got into adventure games about 7 years ago, in my mid teens and well past the genre's golden age, and I grew up on fairly different games (platformers, shooters, RPGs, etc.), so nostalgia doesn't drive my love for the genre. Adventure games have some of the best stories, characters, and dialogue that I have seen in video game, but while that is the main thing that draws me to the genre, it is certainly not the only thing I enjoy about adventure games.

My favorite parts of adventure games tend to involve character interaction (which is probably why I've had a harder time getting into some of the newer indie adventures that have came out, because they usually go for a minimalist storytelling approach with little to no character interaction). I can't quite put my finger on why I enjoy it so much, but there's something how much control the player gets (at least in games with dialogue choices) over the flow and direction of dialogue that I just love. When it comes to the puzzles, I've always liked good puzzles, so the genre is a good match for me, and my favorite adventure games tend to weave the puzzles into the story well enough so that they don't feel like obligatory road blocks, but more like natural challenges to overcome.

I also love finding fun ways to interact with characters and the environment, though the OP already detailed pretty much exactly what I find so fun about that aspect of the game.

...I could probably convey my thoughts better if I wasn't about to pass out at my computer desk. I know there's going to be some major aspect of adventure games that I love that I've forgotten to mention, but my brain is more concerned with sleep right now.

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No matter how poor the graphics, nothing beats the intrigue of a locked door, a forbidden screen, an unreachable ledge or a blocked path. They all serve to motivate you to figure things out and see what is there, to see what it looks like and to see who is there.

It all sparks the imagination. You may forced to walk by a stuck door 50 times before finally getting the pay off. You only have to observe the reaction of a person who is threatened with a spoiler to see how important secrets are to us humans!

In recent years and although not an adventure game as such, Pixeljunk Eden has impressed me the most at capturing the raw elements and hooks that suck you into a game's world and make you yearn to discover it all. It took awhile to 'get it' but there was no going back once you did. I was actually alive in that game.

Puzzles are great and it's nice to think about ideas and options when you are not playing but games that repeatedly make you feel stupid at short intervals are the worst. You have to make the player feel the part and equally pat them on the back, making them feel all clever before slapping them in the face!

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I´m going to say puzzles.

Yeah, puzzles.

Adventure games are for me about replacing combat mechanics in a story driven with something else, to be able to make game with certain types of stories. You can´t make Gray Matter, Grim Fandandgo, Day of the Tentacle or Monkey Island if your main character is spending 90% of the game killing baddies. It just doesn´t work.

So take that away. Remove the combat. That´s step 1. Step 2 is replacing them with something else. If you don´t, you just get interactive novels.

Puzzles are to hard? Or to stupid? Make better puzzles then. Make different puzzles. But don´t take them away. Then you just ended with something that looks nice but plays like crap, like Superbrothers: Swords & Sorcery.

The problems with many modern games is not that they haven´t evolved from the old games, it´s that they lost the good parts of them. The best one of recent years for me is Gray Matter, because it had lot of puzzles, some hard, some easy. And it tried to help the user by not makeing them easier, but by understanding what the goal was. You had several goals at once, so if you got stuck at one, you always had something different to do while you figured the first one out, and you could also why get a score for your progress in that goal. And the map always showed where you still had puzzles and interactions left to do.

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I thought a lot of the talk in episode two about flow was misplaced - I prefer the sort of approach that was also mentioned in the episode that the player should be playing with the game, and more generally that just being in the game world should be fun. This is for the same reason that the idea of flow is misleading here. Most of the time you spend in playing an adventure game is spent at rest - relatively speaking; you are of course still mentally working as you wander about trying to think of what to do. But there aren't any quick reaction times required, you don't have to be 'on the edge of your seat'. And that is why I was so pleased to hear Schafer mention music so much, because good music helps tremendously in making somewhere just a pleasant place to hang out.

It's true of the art, as well, and of the writing, too, since wandering around often involves going through the same conversations repeatedly. But I think the music might be (at least for many people) the most intrusive and memorable element of a game's style. It is after all the only part you can reproduce for yourself while going about your life (by whistling while going for a walk or whatever).

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I feel I wasn't old enough to actually appreciate the fun in adventure games. I played a few when I was in my early teens and found I didn't have the patience for them(Big surprise there). Now though I enjoy them for the worlds AND the puzzles. I think a really great adventure game makes the puzzles blend with the world and the aesthetics. The more I play the older adventure games I found that I enjoyed them, but I had to stop many times and I was less inclined to continue once I stopped feeling the world around me. I think that the flow of an adventure game is different than in most other games. Like Aristotol said, many times you are actively at rest. contradictory as it sounds, your're thinking but not acting, and I think that to "evolve" the adventure game genre(quote form Ron), the puzzles that are there need to let you both stay immersed in the world, aesthetics, and atmosphere of the game; and let you "actively rest" to solve a puzzle or think about something that just happened.

as an idea for a solution, maybe something like Bastion's announcer is a possibility. after an amount of time where the character has stopped or is in the middle of a puzzle, some voice that is narrating the story can provide other pieces of detail or side story that isn't that relevant, but keeps the player attentive to what is happening. also as a side note, when it comes to flow, puzzles, and adventure games in general, the tone of the narrative is a key aspect. if there is a lot of witty humor and lightheartedness, then that changes how a person reacts to a situation. just something to brainstorm I guess

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Most things adventure games do can be done in other kinds of games (the storytelling, atmosphere, exploration etc), but I think one thing that can make adventure games more special than many other types of game is that the player character is not limited to a tiny set of actions. Basically, you never know how you might be able to interact with the world, people or objects, and so that sense of exploration and possibility can be powerful. The trade-off is losing the immediacy that comes from one button representing one action (for instance jumping or shooting in an fps) but the benefit is that the player can do anything the designer can imagine at any moment of the game, rather than being limited to repeating a small set of actions for the entire game. This allows the player character to act more intelligently\interestingly and more closely resemble a real person in different situations, than a character who does nothing but run, jump and attack.

Summary: diversity.

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For me it's simply the combination of story and puzzles which is unique. A nice story you can find in many genre's. Here the combination is different. Also that most of them give you the time you need. IMO one advantage of the old games was the puzzle design which was more interesting than most newer games. Sometimes you have to think differently to solve the puzzles. Also since technically you're playing a different character and of course this character will have different preferences and abilities. But also because the logic of a game can be pretty crazy. DOTT for example has a crazy way of thinking, which I love about it. It's not just about visiting different visual places... it's also about going different logical places. New adventures come too often with simple "use the crowbar to open the box" "puzzles". You don't have to adjust your thinking to go there. Also many new adventures lack interesting characters (some of them are still fun, but its missing). The stories however weren't necessarily better then in newer games. I recently played Indiana Jones 4 once again after several years... the story is actually quite simple (it wouldn't work that well as a movie)... but what's really a lot better than almost every new adventure game is the puzzle design: there's a real build-up here... it starts easy and then it gets tougher and tougher. It's challenging. I love this build up and some of the puzzles are smart (even though Indy 4 is not the hardest lucas arts game)...

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To me, adventure games were the first sandbox games. Sure, there were a certain set of things you had to do in order to complete the game, but you could do it in any way or order you choose. I think about my first adventure game that I ever played: King's Quest. Nearly every (major) puzzle had at least two ways to solve it. Even better, players were rewarded more by taking the non-violent route (out-running the ogre until it falls asleep rather than slaying it David & Goliath style).

While I love many old LucasArts games, they were very linear. Each puzzle only had one option in how to solve it. The first Maniac Mansion was an exception to this, which not only gave you multiple ways of solving a puzzle, but multiple endings, which all depended on what characters you used. Story-wise and humour-wise, the LucasArts games get top billing. I never get tired of them because it's like revisiting one of your favourite movies, where you know all the lines.

The other thing that I feel adventure games rewards you with, as Edweird pointed out, was exploration. There were so many hidden gags, both in trying different things (even if you KNEW they wouldn't work), and in the dialogue. I never got tired of the dialogue trees in LucasArts games because of this. There were times I already knew what the answer was, but I clicked on other options just to see what would happen. Poor Ben in Full Throttle took a beating from me because of this. Another great example of this is Peasant's Quest from Homestarrunner.com. It's so ridiculous to think that they programmed a "throw baby in lake" option.

One of the things I like most, though, is not when I'm stuck on a puzzle, but when I clearly don't have McGuffin A to solve Puzzle B. But then, I'm in a completely different area ten screens away, when I suddenly find that McGuffin object. And I get giddy because I know exactly what to do it with. So I'm almost racing through 10+ screens just to get back to Puzzle B. What I love is when the game is ahead of me, knows exactly where I'm heading, and cuts me off at the pass to throw something else in my way before I can even get there. It's like the game is saying, "Ah ah ah! Let's have that leg of lamb you need for the bear and have it stolen by the undead sheep that wants its leg back. NOW what are you going to do?"

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I've just finished to play again one of my favorite adventure game, monkey island 3.

I did it exactly to answer this question, what made it so great for me? I could definitely see nostalgia around the corner; but I tried to rule it out. And here is what I noticed:

The bad:

- If stuck, goto walkthrough: Having the walkthrough/guide is kind of a curse, if you peek at it once, you'll do that every time you hit your head on an unsolvable puzzle. However, in the end it was always because of an item that I didn't notice.

- I'm here because..?: If I spend too much time on a puzzle, than pause the game for a while, I may resume it and realize that I don't really have the story clear in my mind. The story should stuck and be collected in short videos for me to remember what's my purpose.

The good:

- It's all about imagination: Like a great book, the real beauty of games like MI3 or Grim Fandango is the immersion and the explosion of fantasies that they gave me. Not long ago I saw a play through of the latest, in two parts like a movie. I enjoyed it almost as the first time I played it. Yet I don't know if nostalgia was involved.

- Puzzles are the game: What will stays in your nostalgic mind after decades will be the story and the feelings of that deep universe. But what makes them stuck for so long (unlike movies) are the puzzles. It's the satisfaction of solving them and the amusement of the most improbable solutions that, even if quickly forgotten, will leave that trace that I'll later call nostalgia.

- Get the brain from the eyes: The noir visuals of Grim Fandango, the exotic atmosphere of Broken Swords, the fresh, summerish and cartoony MI3. Those visuals made a great deal to me. They helped my mind to develop a feeling that I associated to the game.

Make a memorable story with amazing visuals and a distinctive feeling for the memories.

Make a funny (hilarious), challenging (but flexibly difficult so that many solutions can work, however not idiot proof) puzzle system for the experience.

And I'm sold. Wait...

Anyway, that's what I can put together right now. hope it helps

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What I love about great adventure games is that they create worlds which I'd like to live in, and which I almost feel as though I am for the hours I'm playing them. They have such rich environments which you can explore, investigating every nook and cranny, and characters which you can get to know.

As much as a book or film can do some of these things, they're inherently passive, what's so special about adventure games is that level of interactivity; you feel as though you are actually part of the story, and its outcome is dependent on you.

The puzzles were a big part of it for me too, even though some of them could be incredibly frustrating. I have a deductive mind, so thinking things through and coming up with a solution was always rewarding, especially if I had been stymied for a while.

Admittedly part of my love for adventure games is nostalgia, but it's never been the overriding factor. I was always a LucasArts fan as a child, so I didn't discover some of the Sierra games such as Gabriel Knight until as recently as 2005, and immediately I was sucked in by it just because of what a great game it was.

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*adventure games have always been the true interactive "playing a movie", "playing a storybook". that wording only started to be used with the FMV games - but I realised then that that has always been true for all adventure games. the presentation, the hand-crafted situations, the way you interact with people and progress. the cinematic backgrounds with pans and stuff. it just all means a really cinematic feel. other games just dont do this as well. theres a reason movies use layouts and fixed cameras and dont zoom about all over the place in 3d. also a lot easier on the eye and mind. for this reason, 3d adventure games dont really work for me. did love GF, but certainly not because of the cg.

*interactive fiction as opposed to "gameplay". I dont really understand the argument that adventure games makes you so free, Ive never seen it that way. youre always on rails and can only attempt what has been catered for. but I think that handcrafted aspect is the ultimate strength of the adventure genre. for a "clean" puzzle solving experience with a story, personally I think zelda-type games work better. the puzzle mechanic and intuition is much more spot on - and youre free to try to do everything within the contexts of the world and your controls. but what zelda cant do is the type of situations that adventure game CAN do. the "game" is only a part of what makes an adventure game, the other bit is "interactive fiction" - and no other genre does it better really! push key out on the otherside so it falls on paper, drag the paper in to get the key. scare the superstitious artifact-dealar by turning the lights off and dressing up as a ghost. sure, multiple solutions would be a strength in itself, and provide more freedom and replayability, BUT I dont think the genres inherent strength is in freedom but in the fact that it IS scripted. youre not going to be free to try everything anyways, unless you make a sandboxy physics-engine (which would suck and you wouldnt be able to have those perfect solutions any more). so its more about making the "set" solutions feel natural and intuitive, and have good reasons why other approaches dont work.

* "casual" gameplay, and I mean that in a good way. you can play when youre tired or relaxed, and dont want to fight baddies or worry about falling off stuff (hello kings quest). like you would pick up a book. you just want to experience that world and that story for a bit.

hard to tell whats nostalgia and not! I havent played any adventures since the 90s. I played gemini rue last year and loved it (but not for the ingenuity or challenge of the puzzles). I also missed out on fate of atlantis back in the day and started playing it last week. loving it! so it feels like it has more to do with newer adventures missing the stuff I loved back in the day. 2d art, charm. stuff like that.

as for tutorials I think you just have to force yourself not to look at them. just like you dont read up on the end of a film before you watch it. the difficulty level is a problem though - an adventure game that is "challenging" is almost always to some degree frustrating as well. I dont personally think puzzles have to be that hard for the game to work. usually youre stuck somewhere specific for a long time because that one solution is too obscure. that doesnt make the game itself a "challenge". if youre stuck maybe 10min-1h in many places maybe thats a good level to be at. just set a rule for yourself - I have to be stuck without making ANY progress for at least an hour (or whatever is your limit) before I look this up.

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I just wanted to add on top of all of the posts here. For me, some of the best moments in adventure games (I grew up on Monkey Island and Grim Fandango) were:

exhibit 1. getting thrown back into the hut by the cannibals and they kept using a 'better' lock on the door every time. Monkey Island 1

exhibit 2. getting Lemonhead to describe his recipe for cooking you in Monkey Island 3 (you even get text warnings to not say certain things)

exhibit 3. letting Guybrush fall all the way down the cliff on Blood Island to unlock a hilarious revenge sequence in Monkey Island 3

exhibit 4. going to talk to the Tube Machine mechanic in Grim Fandango after you clog it (I forget if there's the option to confess to the crime, but I think the guy doesn't believe you and insists it's 'the punks in the mailroom').

exhibit 5. the effectiveness in blatantly lying in Monkey Island 2 to distract a guard by saying, "The kitchen's on fire!" and he just responds with, "Really? I'd better go check." My brother and I laughed so hard that it actually worked.

exhibit 6. diffusing the bomb in Machinarium where I took the puzzle pretty slowly and letting the timer run out just to see how it plays out. I haven't had that many games make me yell out, "OH GAWD WHAT HAVE I DONE" and suddenly laugh out so hard a few seconds later

I guess a lot of it has to do with being able to try things in an adventure game that would definitely get people into trouble in real life (not necessarily from doing things that are out of place/ridiculous) and the fact that there was always a kind of reward for getting the wrong answer first before going straight for a solution to the puzzle. I had this urge to exhaust all of the options just to see how things would play out (usually with hilarious results) before moving on. I think it's also the unique animations that tend to happen in those scenes that really capture me as well.

I think Jakub Dvorsky put it quite nicely in the Episode 2 of the documentary by saying that it's more about playing WITH the game instead of trying to beat it as quickly as possible where the scenarios are charming enough in themselves to make us want to see them again.

(I loved Amanita's approach to Botanicula's creature card thing where you'd need to see all of the actions of a creature to get the card. It's almost like bird-watching).

I almost think of it as giving me the same positive sensations of gimmicky toys when I was a wee lad (except, uh... more sophisticated). The feeling of fascination really gets me.

Summing it up:

Social Awkwardness. Exploring via Mischief. Sense of wonder and almost disbelief.

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For me, I think it's the "puzzles" and "interaction", but it's not the "I like soduku" sort of puzzle or "I like playing sim city" sort of interaction. It's more the thrill/laughs you get from realizing that "yay - the game designer thought that trapping Stan in a coffin was a good idea, same as me!" or "yes, 'I mean to kill you all!' is the response here for optimal hilarity" and seeing what the heck the deranged designer who came up with that was thinking.

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The thing that is special about adventure games is that they are all about exploring and... um... for lack of a better term "fiddling around with stuff".

Lots of games have exploring, but they don't have exploring in the same way. In Adventure games, you are sort of a hybrid archaeologist-slash-ethnographer in that world. In games like the Myst series or in the games by Amanita design, the worlds are always sort of alien and mysterious, and a lot of times you find yourself asking, "What the heck is THIS thing?" So you press all its buttons or pull its levers or try to throw a bunch of different objects at it to see what happens. Games like DOTT and Monkey Island make you ask, "Woah, what the heck is THIS guy's deal???" So you go and talk to him, because just look at that guy.

Oh! And do you know how they have those baby toys that babies lie underneath and there are all these shiny, dangling, noise-makey things that dangle in the baby's face? And the baby is fascinated because he/she has to poke all of them, pull them, slap them, etc, just to see what they all do? And the fact that they all do something is weird and funny and fascinating? Adventure games are kind of like that, too.

Explorer hats on. Magnifying glasses out. Cat-killing curiosity engaged. It is time to find an adventure game, go to all the places, say all the words to all the people, poke all the things.

Playing Adventure games is kind of like... MISCHIEVOUS SCIENCE.

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I agree with AnAnemoneInAnonymity that adventure games are mainly about exploring and fiddling with stuff.

In most other games the player derives satisfaction from mastering a specific skill. You first learn the game mechanics, then you practice to get better and better at it.

In adventure games you are (ideally) always in the state of confusion, a beginner trying to make sense of things. The gameplay takes place in a kind of semiotic dimension that goes beyond the game mechanics. The challenge is trying to figure out what the game is trying to say, rather than reaching the next level of mastery.

The puzzles are what motivates me to dig deeper and really explore things in detail. Knowing that understanding the game world will help me overcome an obstacle makes me much more inclined to explore it thoroughly.

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I agree with AnAnemoneInAnonymity that adventure games are mainly about exploring and fiddling with stuff.

In most other games the player derives satisfaction from mastering a specific skill. You first learn the game mechanics, then you practice to get better and better at it.

In adventure games you are (ideally) always in the state of confusion, a beginner trying to make sense of things.

Yeah! I like the sound of that. Sounds about right.

I mean, when you look at action-oriented games like shooters and fighters, you have to get better and better at controlling a certain skill or set of skills if you want to win. But point-and-clicks aren't dependent on developing better pointing skills or better clicking skills. You're already good at the movements of point-and-clicks as soon as you pick them up. In terms of control, they are super accessible.

The art of a point-and-click is that you get a lot of different responses from the same input (hence my analogy to the baby toy). Compare this to a shooter: shoot a guy, he dies. Shoot a different guy, he dies. Shoot a thing, it explodes. Shoot a guy standing next to a thing, explosion and death. Lots of different takes on the same two things, but mostly the same two things are happening when you shoot.

But a click can mean anything. Pushing. Pulling. Talking. Examining. Opening. Closing. Etc,etc,verbs. But there is no good way for you to predict what verb will be used (if the game determines the verb for you) or what verb you will need next (if you select the verb yourself). So in that way, the player never leaves that state of confusion. And if done right, that confusion translates to wonder. Children are often confused, but that makes them frequently in a state of wonder.

In a point-and-click, you also can't ever really know for sure what's coming up next or what the game is going to ask you to do. (As opposed to a shooting game where you always know you're going to be shooting some dudes pretty soon.) The worlds are slow-paced, sure, but they can also be very uncertain and unpredictable in ways that other skill-based/action-based games cannot be.

That is very conducive to adventure. The fact that you never quite know what you're going to see next. That keeps the urge to find out what's next burning. Just have to finish this puzzle. Have to see what's outside this locked door. It's probably awesome. Can't quit now.

The gameplay takes place in a kind of semiotic dimension that goes beyond the game mechanics. The challenge is trying to figure out what the game is trying to say, rather than reaching the next level of mastery.

I like that you phrased it in terms of semiotics. Since adventure games do have such a wide variety of interactions and tasks, the signs and indicators given to the player are very important. But that's also just good game design sense.

There is a sort of tightrope walk here, though... I like how you said the challenge is "trying to figure out what the game is trying to say", but I think there are at least two interpretations of that:

1) "Guess what the developer was thinking." Every player hates playing this game. Developers hate accidentally making this game. But sometimes---and historically especially in adventure games---it creeps in and makes everyone kinda grumpy. This is not the thing that makes adventure games good. It hurts them, but sometimes it happens by accident.

2) "Guess what the game is trying to express." I like this interpretation better. When I solve a puzzle in Riven, I'm not just trying to figure out how the puzzle works and what the solution is---the puzzle specific knowledge. The puzzle almost always has some sort of cultural relevance to the D'ni or the world of Riven somehow. So by interacting with the puzzle and seeing what it does, I am also learning about its significance at the same time. I am taking in practical knowledge, but I am also taking in context---a kind of story knowledge.

And as the die-hard adventurers know, unlocking a world is just as satisfying (arguably MORE satisfying) than unlocking a puzzle.

The puzzles are what motivates me to dig deeper and really explore things in detail. Knowing that understanding the game world will help me overcome an obstacle makes me much more inclined to explore it thoroughly.

I like the cut o' yer jib.

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