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rubyhope

Documentary:Status

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... with emotional music in the background and cool camera angles. Not saying that I don't want DF to keep updating us - I do, I do! I just wish we could see the whole footage too, right after it's filmed, rather than somewhat pointlessly being denied it, especially since being able to see the entire development process from start to end was one of the main selling points of the project.

This summarizes how I kind of feel about it as well. It feels like all of the editing that is presumably the reason for all of the delay is really only there to setup a certain aesthetic and force a specific narrative and emotions from the design process. If they are going to make a documentary to sell at the end of the project it makes compete sense to do so, but I was under the assumption that I'd' be receiving unfiltered access to game design and a kickass adventure game. With the current way of things I just don't think these heavily edited videos really do that, and it makes sense to release video that is more raw at the moment.

I think this is where you're going wrong. Here in the forum, we seem like the majority, the people that backed the project and will gleefully absorb anything DFA related thrown our way. But it's rather a heavy sampling bias. There were 80k backers given the number of views these pages have had (bearing in mind they're not unique views) only a fraction of those people view the forums at all, let alone as studiously as we do. The vast majority of other backers will be experiencing the project through the main documentary episodes (if they watch them at all) and they are the main audience here.

I disagree that wanting up-to-date video content is a concern that is precluded from the casual viewers. A lot of people dismissed complaints on the Dragon Age 2 forum as being reflective of only a tiny minority of the fan base, and then they sold an underwhelming number of units. I'm one of those casual viewers, and the only reason I've started posting on this forum is because I feel like they are doing an inadequate job with the documentary. It's probably naive to think they actually care what us plebs think, but I'm hoping they'll take note and adjust accordingly.

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I don’t think arguments regarding the documentary will ever stop…

A lot of people during the campaign were opposed to the documentary since it took away from the game’s budget, the majority of people haven’t even heard of 2PP before this project.

The biggest advantage the documentary gives to the game is as a marketing tool, which helps the sales of the game, not its quality.

I’m worried if the documentary, plus post updates we get delay or inhibit the game’s development as DF would have normally done it, particularly since it requires processing and they do not just copy paste stuff.

But we agreed to support this project on Kickstarter; we are getting a documentary, regardless if some of our expectations got proved wrong, I still find the Episodes entertaining my self.

Rough cuts were brought up when the last episode was delayed; assuming 2PP reads this thread, since they didn’t comment on it I assume is not something they plan on doing, if somebody wants to PM them about it for a direct response go ahead, not a concern of mine.

The reason why this thread exists and why we go on ahead analyzing why this is happening and why that is happening, and what would be better and what we expected and what we got, etc, etc.

Is because episodes keep not showing up on time, and the people who pay attention in these forums and pay close attention to the development of the game get restless.

I noticed as time goes on, less and less people post on the update posts, or in these forums in general, is like as time passes more and more people have lost interest in paying close attention to the development of the game, remember when these forums opened it was a flood of posts everywhere, looking at the backer forums now you wouldn’t believe that 80k+ people have access to it and let’s say at least 5k of them bothered to post or read them.

I better stop here before someone finds a reason to attack me again.

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... with emotional music in the background and cool camera angles. Not saying that I don't want DF to keep updating us - I do, I do! I just wish we could see the whole footage too, right after it's filmed, rather than somewhat pointlessly being denied it, especially since being able to see the entire development process from start to end was one of the main selling points of the project.

This summarizes how I kind of feel about it as well. It feels like all of the editing that is presumably the reason for all of the delay is really only there to setup a certain aesthetic and force a specific narrative and emotions from the design process. If they are going to make a documentary to sell at the end of the project it makes compete sense to do so, but I was under the assumption that I'd' be receiving unfiltered access to game design and a kickass adventure game. With the current way of things I just don't think these heavily edited videos really do that, and it makes sense to release video that is more raw at the moment.

I think this is where you're going wrong. Here in the forum, we seem like the majority, the people that backed the project and will gleefully absorb anything DFA related thrown our way. But it's rather a heavy sampling bias. There were 80k backers given the number of views these pages have had (bearing in mind they're not unique views) only a fraction of those people view the forums at all, let alone as studiously as we do. The vast majority of other backers will be experiencing the project through the main documentary episodes (if they watch them at all) and they are the main audience here.

I disagree that wanting up-to-date video content is a concern that is precluded from the casual viewers. A lot of people dismissed complaints on the Dragon Age 2 forum as being reflective of only a tiny minority of the fan base, and then they sold an underwhelming number of units. I'm one of those casual viewers, and the only reason I've started posting on this forum is because I feel like they are doing an inadequate job with the documentary. It's probably naive to think they actually care what us plebs think, but I'm hoping they'll take note and adjust accordingly.

But you're still one person in 80k. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, or that it's impossible for one of the casual viewers to care about it, I'm just saying that you're an outlier here, I don't see people joining the forums en masse to complain about the treatment of the documentary at all. Of the people that are on the forum, many are completely content, many would like more info about scheduling (which is really what this thread is about) but are content with the treatment, and yes - there are some people complaining about the treatment of the documentary.

Obviously, I'm generalising, but we're getting a distorted view on this forum because of this general effect:

Person A loves X: Quite likely to post that they love X.

Person B likes X: Not especially likely to post, but they might.

Person C thinks X is fine, neither especially good nor bad: Not likely to post.

Person D thinks X has some problems: Quite likely to post about it.

Person E thinks X is very problematic or is angry about it: Very likely to post about it.

I don't have evidence of that, but I think that looks about intuitively right. People tend to only give positive feedback when it's VERY positive (nobody starts a topic saying something like 'I quite liked that last episode, it was reasonably good') Or, in other words, if you take the totality of feedback, it is likely to read a little more negatively than is actually reflected by opinion. Which makes the negative opinion look more common than it actually is. Again, not saying that that invalidates it, just that it's worth remembering that the internet amplifies criticism.

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I don't have evidence of that, but I think that looks about intuitively right. People tend to only give positive feedback when it's VERY positive (nobody starts a topic saying something like 'I quite liked that last episode, it was reasonably good') Or, in other words, if you take the totality of feedback, it is likely to read a little more negatively than is actually reflected by opinion. Which makes the negative opinion look more common than it actually is. Again, not saying that that invalidates it, just that it's worth remembering that the internet amplifies criticism.

It's a valid point and I understand that I'm part of a distribution of opinions. I imagine it is tough for any company to decide when to incorporate forum opinions and when to go their own way. You can also get a distorted view of how good something is on forums as well. I did point out a case where a group of malcontents were dismissed as a very vocal minority before though, and those opinions prevailed as a majority. I've seen this debate pop up on many threads before, and my opinion is that it's not very useful to try and gauge an argument's merits on the basis of whether they are representative of a minority or not. None of us have any good way of predicting one way or another, so we might as well just discuss it.

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Hey guys,

2 Player Productions is doing the documentary in their own style. We brought them on because we liked their past work! Part of the Kickstarter project is the creation of a high-quality documentary that is well-produced and watchable on its own merits, not just as supplementary footage of the game project. I know that no matter what route we or 2PP take with this, it won't be ideal for every individual person, but 2PP has their style and we do think it's turning out great. On a related note, one of the reasons 2PP started doing the Sidequest videos was because forum members expressed their desire for more straightforward, less-edited footage. Even though those videos are still nicely produced, with all that great intercut supporting imagery, they really are essentially direct interview footage.

Honestly, as someone on the dev side, I have to say that straight footage of actual game development wouldn't be interesting or entertaining for the most part. Seriously. The vast majority of it is just people sitting in front of computers. That's why we've been doing all of those forum posts directly from the team members about their individual disciplines. Those have the actual interesting bits of what those team members are working on--the important decisions and progress. And the main documentary captures the great in-person moments that come up over the course of a month.

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ok chris, but why doesnt 2pp do any updates on their progress? they are unable to keep up with the promised tempo, i can accept that, however they are silent on their progress. the silence is THE most important thing discussed here. i doubt it would stir so much discussion if we knew how the documentery is coming along.

i agree that the computer part is obviously the most time consuming, but you did have some team meetings didnt you? are you saying that nothing gets discussed there? of course youre not. or are you just holding it back for the documentary? that would be a very plausible reason.

i also approve on the sidequests, but i didnt know that they would be THAT time consuming. something like: "ok, we can do some additional stuff, but that takes X amount of time and will delay each episode for roughly that long. what do you think?" would be sufficient.

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ok chris, but why doesnt 2pp do any updates on their progress? they are unable to keep up with the promised tempo, i can accept that, however they are silent on their progress. the silence is THE most important thing discussed here. i doubt it would stir so much discussion if we knew how the documentery is coming along.

i agree that the computer part is obviously the most time consuming, but you did have some team meetings didnt you? are you saying that nothing gets discussed there? of course youre not. or are you just holding it back for the documentary? that would be a very plausible reason.

i also approve on the sidequests, but i didnt know that they would be THAT time consuming. something like: "ok, we can do some additional stuff, but that takes X amount of time and will delay each episode for roughly that long. what do you think?" would be sufficient.

There should be a second kickstarter to raise funds for a documentary about the making of the documentary for REDS

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Honestly, as someone on the dev side, I have to say that straight footage of actual game development wouldn't be interesting or entertaining for the most part. Seriously. The vast majority of it is just people sitting in front of computers.

That may be so, but I personally think your meetings and discussions would be very interesting in their entirety. It would be interesting because is about people interacting in regards to the game’s development, like when you decide to cut something out, what works and what doesn’t, your own disagreement with Tim on the last Episode was probably one of the most entertaining parts.

As someone who is not a game designer and doesn’t have an interest to become one (like the majority of backers), those are the parts I find more interesting, of course who knows, maybe the next episode is all about that.

If there any stuff you don’t want to show there, you could always cut parts out, or outright censor words and images, won’t look as polished but it will at least be raw.

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wait, ive just got an suggestion that the rest of the community wont like but might actually help in the long run.

do not release videos in such short bursts! for example Sidequest: “It’s All Coming Back To Me” was released the day after the previous one. why such a rapid fire? release the videos with a more stable frequency and less videos would actually look like more videos.

ok guys! time to kill me!

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And of the conspiracy theory meant to keep people from seeing the "real" documentary. Honestly I don't think some folks would be satisfied even if they went so far as to show DF employee's commute to and from work.

What's that? Tim Schafer is pulling into a Hess station?!? This must be significant enough to be screen worthy!

Edit:

@Black_hand

Actually, at the risk of pissing off the Green Lantern Corps., I do agree with you. That would at least sate us while we waited for the next DFA.

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In what other industry would this kind of lag be acceptable ? Magazines, newspapers and TV shows have to go out on schedule. Being late in anything (not talking 30 minutes) , speaks volumes about reliability. This isn't a day or two late, it's been about a month. Personally I really like the direction of the documentary, but if it's going to be 2 month periods before each release they should just come out and say they won't be able to meet the monthly deadlines anymore. This way people are not sitting around impatiently tapping their feet and getting bitter.

P.S. I'd sure like to see some sausage making process too! I assume that is what will be coming up. I'd really hate to see it turn into MTV Road Rules Double Fine Edition...

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In what other industry would this kind of lag be acceptable ? Magazines, newspapers and TV shows have to go out on schedule. Being late in anything (not talking 30 minutes) , speaks volumes about reliability. This isn't a day or two late, it's been about a month. Personally I really like the direction of the documentary, but if it's going to be 2 month periods before each release they should just come out and say they won't be able to meet the monthly deadlines anymore. This way people are not sitting around impatiently tapping their feet and getting bitter.

its not two months yet. roughly a month, although there is that lag of the previous episode.

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Just adding my two cents here:

I'm not a fan of point and click games and never was, I am however a huge fan of Double Fine and I trust I'll like the games they'll make based on their games I've played, however, the documentary is the main reason I've backed this project. The only thing I like as much as playing games is seeing how they're made and meeting people that made them.

I'd love for 2pp to release the episodes more steadily but I don't have any problem with delays because I know that more often than not they're done for the right reasons. However, transparency would be nice when it comes to estimated release date even if the date is off and has to be rescheduled.

Also this:

do not release videos in such short bursts! for example Sidequest: “It’s All Coming Back To Me” was released the day after the previous one. why such a rapid fire? release the videos with a more stable frequency and less videos would actually look like more videos.

I think this is a great idea.

on a side note: Thank you for listening to your community and putting out the Sidequests we really appreciate them :]

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In what other industry would this kind of lag be acceptable ? Magazines, newspapers and TV shows have to go out on schedule. Being late in anything (not talking 30 minutes) , speaks volumes about reliability. This isn't a day or two late, it's been about a month. Personally I really like the direction of the documentary, but if it's going to be 2 month periods before each release they should just come out and say they won't be able to meet the monthly deadlines anymore. This way people are not sitting around impatiently tapping their feet and getting bitter.

P.S. I'd sure like to see some sausage making process too! I assume that is what will be coming up. I'd really hate to see it turn into MTV Road Rules Double Fine Edition...

They aren't late by a month. It's been just over a month since the last full episode.

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In what other industry would this kind of lag be acceptable ? Magazines, newspapers and TV shows have to go out on schedule. Being late in anything (not talking 30 minutes) , speaks volumes about reliability. This isn't a day or two late, it's been about a month. Personally I really like the direction of the documentary, but if it's going to be 2 month periods before each release they should just come out and say they won't be able to meet the monthly deadlines anymore. This way people are not sitting around impatiently tapping their feet and getting bitter.

its not two months yet. roughly a month, although there is that lag of the previous episode.

Which is why I said...

This isn't a day or two late, it's been about a month.

I was just giving 2 months as an example time frame that they could give us. So I know to check back in when September rolls around or whatever.

1st Ep was released April 5, if they were sticking to monthly releases the next one should have come out May 5. On to June 5, July 5, etc. It's now July 30th.

1st Ep : April 5

2nd Ep : May 11

3rd Ep : June 27

It's just getting later and later.

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I truly like what 2PP is doing with documentary (quality and content). I don't even mind the release phase of the videos. They come when they come. Only thing what bugs me is the communication. It could be very easy to say "video comes when it's ready ETA 2 days".

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ok chris, but why doesnt 2pp do any updates on their progress? they are unable to keep up with the promised tempo, i can accept that, however they are silent on their progress. the silence is THE most important thing discussed here. i doubt it would stir so much discussion if we knew how the documentery is coming along.

i agree that the computer part is obviously the most time consuming, but you did have some team meetings didnt you? are you saying that nothing gets discussed there? of course youre not. or are you just holding it back for the documentary? that would be a very plausible reason.

i also approve on the sidequests, but i didnt know that they would be THAT time consuming. something like: "ok, we can do some additional stuff, but that takes X amount of time and will delay each episode for roughly that long. what do you think?" would be sufficient.

There should be a second kickstarter to raise funds for a documentary about the making of the documentary for REDS

I'd be a backer.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.
What's the most time consuming and laborious part of the whole process?

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

nice! see? thanks, this is what we have needed. maybe also an estimate. i guess one week is a reasonable time frame?

btw telling us that this is meant to be a "double-feature" about week or two ago would go a long way to prevent the sudden liveliness of this thread as well.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

Awesome! I never doubted you guys.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.
What's the most time consuming and laborious part of the whole process?

We're putting together a workflow document to post on the forums that will answer that sort of question. The document will be out along with or before episode 4.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

nice! see? thanks, this is what we have needed. maybe also an estimate. i guess one week is a reasonable time frame?

btw telling us that this is meant to be a "double-feature" about week or two ago would go a long way to prevent the sudden liveliness of this thread as well.

The audio for this one is complicated and our audio technician is very backed up. Early next week is possible, while he's doing that we're doing all the post color correction/ b-roll stuff. The cut has already been approved by DF.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

ibdW9.gif

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Don't see what all the fuzz is about. The docu's have been of the most exceptional quality and a joy to watch - kudos to that. Having made my own home videos I totally understand that editing, cutting out all the crap, and creating a story that flows takes a lot of time. Let alone doing it professionally, keep up the good work.

In any case, if I want to watch raw unfiltered footage of anything I'll go to youtube - enough crap on that site.

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Episode 4 is having it's audio worked on and final visual corrections made. It's twice the length of a normal episode.

Told you it'd be worth the wait. That's like two episodes.

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Out of curiosity do you guys have a twitter account? Great way to keep us in the loop without much effort imo

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Like it or not, backers will always get an edited version of what's going on over there. The only thing that I can suggest, beyond making sure 2PP update more regularly on the schedule, is that DF people (such as Chris, Anna, Oliver and Lee) post from time to time their updates in video format. However, it's really up to them, these video updates may take them longer than just writing their posts.

As for meetings/discussions, this was actually discussed after Ep. 3, I'm one of the people who asked about the content of the meeting in that episode (my main concern was that the documentary would suffer from lack details about the game). The answer was clear that DF were not ready yet to show the game design and concept which is a very legitimate reason. I have no idea if that's in Ep. 4, but at the very least people should watch it before complaining about the content or lack there of. 2PP also hinted they may release footage after the game is released (to prevent spoilers, not because of some odd conspiracy theory)

As for the style or if someone thinks they can do a better job, just go for it and do it yourself. I personally haven't seen this quality that often so I think some people should learn to appreciate 2PP's work. Personally, I think 2PP should release the videos when they are ready and not based on some schedule that will reduce the quality or content.

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Out of curiosity do you guys have a twitter account? Great way to keep us in the loop without much effort imo

2PP do have a twitter, link is in Levering's signature. It's easy to find.

If they used twitter for documentary progress then it wouldn't be a private backers-only update and would spoil the tingly sense of exclusivity ;)

Keep in the loop by paying attention and reading all forum posts thoroughly.

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