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Arthur

Let's plan the future of the Game Club!

What should we play for Game Club?!  

180 members have voted

  1. 1. What should we play for Game Club?!

    • Beneath a Steel Sky
      23
    • Bontanicula
      15
    • Gemini Rue
      23
    • Gray Matter
      7
    • Machinarium
      16
    • Maniac Mansion
      15
    • Simon the Sorcerer 2
      11
    • Tales of Monkey Island
      24
    • The Journey Down
      8
    • The Last Express
      16
    • Under a Killing Moon
      13
    • Zak McKracken
      9


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Hey folks,

Starting a new thread here so as not to derail the discussion about Superbrothers S&S in the "official" game club thread.

Basically, I think it's time we talked about the organisation of the game club and how we're going to go forward with it. There's clearly an appetite for the thing and people would clearly like to keep it up as a regular thing.

It's also clear that we're not going to be able to keep it up as a regular deal if there isn't someone to "curate" it. So far, Greg's stepped up to the plate, but there's been a very clear correlation between Greg being able to participate in the chat and the chat happening at all. Since all chatting together whilst we simultaneously play the game is a big draw of the club (I think streaming is nice but strictly a bonus - I never watch the stream because it'd be too distracting from my own playthrough), the collapse of the chat whenever Greg isn't there seems like a major problem to me.

The problem has been most evident with the playthrough of Superbrothers: S&S. Putting my own personal thoughts about the game aside, it seems clear to me that the communal playthrough is in complete disarray and the plan to play one session a week has gone down the sink. For two weeks in a row, Greg hasn't been around to play on Saturday (or, it seems, on last Tuesday when the Saturday 16th session was rescheduled to) which effectively meant the communal playing sessions didn't happen.

I want to stress that I'm not out to criticise Greg here: as I've said before, Game Club is something that DF have offered to us voluntarily, they didn't have to set it up in the first place, and if Greg is simply too busy with more important stuff then we ought to respect that. I'm raising this because I think it'd be good for all of us who've enjoyed the game club in weeks past and want to see it continue in a more regular fashion in future to actually talk about where this thing is going. Last minute edit: Greg just posted in the S:S&S thread to say he's actually willing to consider possibilities for keeping the club going now that DFA is approaching crunch time, which makes me feel much better about raising this subject now. :)

Here's some potential solutions, as I see them: everyone should feel free to pitch in others. Greg, since the game club is your baby obviously some of the solutions I've proposed here can only work with your consent, so I'd really appreciate it if you could flag any solutions which would be flat-out unacceptable to you.

Greg stays in charge of Game Club but deputises someone. Greg's deputy is in charge of as much as Greg is willing to delegate to them, but at the very least will commit to curating the game club communal chat on weeks when Greg isn't able to make it; if Greg is too busy to say "hey, we're doing this this week", the deputy will make sure to post in the relevant thread saying "Remember that we're going ahead this week - love to have you with us if you can make it, Greg". The deputy could also see about streaming gameplay (or at the very least find a volunteer to stream gameplay) on those weeks Greg can't do streaming. (This wouldn't necessarily involve having to share access to the streaming site account Greg's been using - there's no reason someone can't make a "DFGameclubdeputy" streaming account on some appropriate site to use on weeks Greg can't provide the official steam. Whoever is given charge of the thing should, however, be given moderator control over the chat channel in case of shenanigans during the play sessions.)

Greg hands management of the Game Club over to the community. I suggest that to avoid things being decided by committee all the time that one person should have primary responsibility for the Game Club, whether they are chosen by election, popular acclaim, or Greg passing the crown on to them. That said, to avoid the same mess happening all over again I'd also suggest that whoever is the new Club Prez should also pick a deputy.

Greg continues running the DF Game Club as currently, the community organises a parallel Alternative Game Club. The Alternative Club should of course be arranged so that it doesn't clash with the main deal; perhaps, in fact, it'd only run on those weeks when there isn't an official Game Club chat happening. This is probably the solution I like the least since it'd kind of fracture the community, even though having an alternate to the main game currently being played would be nice if the DF club happens to be playing through a game I don't personally like. Last minute edit: Given that Greg has already said he probably won't be able to commit much time to the club now that work on DFA is shifting into high gear, I suspect this is also his least favoured option. ;)

Of course, all the above solutions require community members being willing to do their bit. I'm happy to volunteer myself, but the more volunteers the better really - maybe we could have an election to select a "club president", maybe we could have Greg pick someone by Double Fine Decree, whatever, but the larger the pool of people saying "I'm willing to pitch in to help the club be a success" the larger the pool whoever gets picked has to help out with various tasks on weeks when they personally are too busy to handle everything.

Thoughts, anyone?

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I think the community working to organize this could refocus it in a good way.

IMO there's always been something slightly difficult and funky about the whole streaming/chatting/playing-a-game all at once that makes this idea sort of lose focus... It was pretty difficult for Greg to handle all of that at once.

I think we should probably form a group of volunteers/regulars that would like to curate some themes around a 2-3 hour "weekly meeting" to be held at the usual Saturday 12-3pm-ish (PSD) time.

I think a basic routine time will help people know when the channel is active, whether or not there's anything "going on" that week.

It would be the coolest, of course, if different people from Double Fine wanted to drop in and chat -- even if for a little while. I'm sure a lot of interesting discussion could happen if there was a set "programmer chat", or "animator-chat"... That would lessen any one particular persons involvement in carrying the club.

If Double Fine would be able to commit to some kind of involvement like that, a few of us other regulars would be willing to coordinate some games to play thru and/or stream, and other themed discussions (or lure other game developers to come chat).. and establish a longer calendar in the process (to better promote it).

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Thanks for making this post, Arthur. I was planning to write something similar next month (I'm going to be away next week).

My preference is for the first option, where the Game Club is officially run, but facilitated by one or more community members, who can fill in and/or run the show when Greg/each other aren't available. I feel like streaming is an important/valuable way for people who don't have the current game (or have played it enough to want something akin to a commentary like you'd find on a DVD) to still feel involved and engaged. I feel that it would be really worthwhile for the Game Club to be promoted/managed/etc. as an official Double Fine thing, since that's stuff that's harder for us to do.

I'd be happy to be involved with keeping things going.

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It would be the coolest, of course, if different people from Double Fine wanted to drop in and chat -- even if for a little while. I'm sure a lot of interesting discussion could happen if there was a set "programmer chat", or "animator-chat"... That would lessen any one particular persons involvement in carrying the club.

That's a great idea :D

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I thought it'd be manageable for us to make a list of dates, and Greg to get different DF people to sign up -- and make it programming week, music week, animation week, etc (maybe spread these out to once-a-month)... and the off weeks can be game/community-discussion centered.

It might be possible to get Vince Twelve/Dave Gilbert here to chat about Resonance, or Theo from The Journey Down team... And probably a few others. It'd be cool if we made a list of dates, maybe starting with a July 7th relaunch, and started slotting in ideas -- it'd probably be easier just to make it a chat, though. We could figure out some way of streaming something, if people are willing.

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Let's look at the different jobs that Greg's been doing as club chief:

1: Selecting games to play. Though two of the four games we've played so far have been chosen by vote, it's still been Greg who chose the parameters of the vote and who made the final call. You really do want to have one person who has the final call on this front (whether that call involves them declaring "We're playing Limbo of the Lost because it's topical this week" or involves them saying "Limbo of the Lost won the most votes, so we'll run with that!"), because a final decision has to be made and if you have a committee deciding (or, god forbid, the whole community) you still have to give someone the casting vote to prevent deadlock. At the same time, you don't need to have a very consistent schedule to do this job, so long as you're able to make a call on what game we're playing in due course.

2: Deciding when to stop playing a particular game, as happened when the Gabriel Knight discussion petered out. Obviously this could be a controversial point. I suggest we have a rule that any particular game should be allowed to run for at least two scheduled sessions (or maybe three or four) before someone can propose we finish it, unless it's a particularly short game. Ultimately we do want to have a chance to play a decent mix of games over the lifespan of the club so we don't want to be bogged down in one game for months and months. Again, this is the sort of thing you want to have one person be the final arbiter on.

3: Reminding people that the communal session is happening. Preferably there ought to be a reminder a day before and a "we're live now!" post when the session actually begins. I guess you can have multiple people doing that but it seems pointless.

4: Curating the chat, acting as moderator and keeping the discussion of the game going in the chat. Again, multiple mods are possible on an IRC channel, but I don't think it's necessary in this case.

EDIT: 4.5: Curating the discussion on the forum thread, though this job rather overlaps with 3 and 4.

5: Sometimes streaming stuff. As I've said before, I think this is the least essential job, and I also think it could fairly easily be crowd-sourced from community volunteers - after all, there's no reason we have to watch the same person's stream each week. Either way, you only want to have one club stream at a time rather than having multiple people streaming in the same session because you don't want to fragment the viewership.

So, the above are a bunch of jobs which each individually could be perfectly well handled by one person, but at don't have to all be handled by the same person (though that said it'd make sense if job 1 and job 2 were handled by the same person, and combining jobs 3 and 4 (EDIT: and 4.5) would also be logical). At the same time, people have volatile schedules so it'd be good for someone to be able to say "not going to be able to do X this Saturday, will someone else please stand up to the bat?"

So if we went for the community-led version I'd say we'd need to have 1-3 co-ordinators who take primary responsibility to make sure the above gets done, and a pool of volunteers who co-ordinators can tap to handle jobs when there's a shortfall.

Alternately, if we want to keep Greg in charge then Greg can appoint (or we can elect) 1-3 deputies to perform the above functions, keeping Greg in the loop so that if he or other DF folk want to step in they can.

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I see there being a lot of value in having multiple people who can be designated to fill in for one another and cycle through to prevent burnout (this isn't an intensive task, but repetitive stuff can still get tiresome), especially when we're talking about community volunteers.

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BTW, so we don't run away with ourselves too quickly we should see what Greg has to say about the different options before we get too deep into planning schedules and so forth. Let's try to keep the conversation on the subject of how the division of labour could be allocated and the pros and cons of keeping Greg in a leadership role versus taking an entirely community-led approach to this for the time being, and then when Greg makes a call on how he wants to handle the power-sharing we can go from there.

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I think a benefit of this club is to get industry experts involved. Think of the comments Tim made while playing DOTT (e.g., trying to open the safe should have made a sound).

So it could be the person who designed the game playing it (this is the coolest), or someone from DF who can comment what they see about the game while playing. If it's just between backers and not DF (or some other gaming expert) I believe we lose a lot of the value of this activity.

It is a bit difficult to play the game and chat, so maybe we need one to play and a different person to provide the comments than the one playing it and also answering questions.

I'm not sure which one of your options covers this, but this is what I would like to see.

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Further thoughts: clearly on my job list tasks 1 and 2 are the sweetest because they give you the power to essentially steer where the game club goes, whereas tasks 3/4/4.5 and tasks 5 are somewhat more thankless and somewhat more secondary: they can't happen unless job 1/2 has been dealt with.

So, suggestion for a community-led structure: we have a club leader who is always responsible for task 1 and 2 and also has authority over the other tasks, and one or two deputies who can fill in on the streaming/chat management side of things on weeks the club leader can't do it. In the event that the club leader fails to clarify what game we're playing this week, whichever of the deputies happens to be available can make the call.

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It would be the coolest, of course, if different people from Double Fine wanted to drop in and chat -- even if for a little while. I'm sure a lot of interesting discussion could happen if there was a set "programmer chat", or "animator-chat"... That would lessen any one particular persons involvement in carrying the club.

That would be quite awesome.

I think the best idea would be for the community to handle the bulk of the organization, and DF can drop into chat if and when they're able to make things extra interesting.

I could potentially stream, but my channel would have ads, I probably wouldn't provide any sort of commentary, my internet's not the greatest so the quality would probably be kind of poor, and I'm still trying to get used to a strange streaming setup that I now have since Xsplit's free version is now nigh-unusable garbage and I had to seek an alternative.

Basically anyone with proper streaming software would probably be a better streamer than I, but I can do it if I must.

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I think the best idea would be for the community to handle the bulk of the organization, and DF can drop into chat if and when they're able to make things extra interesting.

I think this probably the best approach.

Whilst having DF or the designers of the games we are currently playing is obviously the ideal, we've got to be realistic: as Greg's said, they're going into high gear on DFA, which means that everyone else on the DFA team is going to be just as busy as he is - and with The Cave being unveiled I suspect a large proportion of the rest of the team is also going to be very busy. I think the best we can do is keep the DF guys posted on what's going on (maybe if our club leader PMs Greg once a week with an update on what's going on), and if someone swings by to talk that's great, but we need to accept that we can't count on that happening.

Getting designers of games which weren't worked on by DF people in on the chat, equally, would be nice, though unless DF are willing to give them access to the backer forums they wouldn't be able to participate in the forum discussion of their games, which would be good. I guess there's no harm in the club leader trying to contact the relevant people, or maybe if a game comes up where Greg says "Hey, I/some other DFer know those guys, we'll send them a message seeing if they want to participate" that could work too.

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Think we're getting pretty firmly into tl;dr territory for Greg here -- We should really hold this discussion until Greg or Chris can get a word in on how they see this moving forward.

(and on a side note) It seems unlikely that DF would be willing to "officially" deputize any of us OR the chat, since we're not employees and/or it's a liability issue -- So the best situation seems to be Greg or Chris making a determination on the framework in which we could get some interaction with DF, then leaving us to hash out the rest in the channel.

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Now that it has come to this, here are some ideas from someone (read: me) who hasn't taken part in many of the events due to the (dis)organisation of the club.

How about we (the club members or deputies) decide on a game and people can acquire and play that game at their own pace during the week and we gather on IRC to discuss the game at a set time each Saturday? If you still want to stream part of the game, that can be done for an hour or two before the chat begins. I strongly feel that we need to have an hour or two that's game-free for just discussing the game. That is something I have missed in the past events. This is also when people from DF or any other invitees could join in.

I think IRC would be best for real-time discussions regarding the games played and the forum can have more in-depth talks since we can have longer posts here and express our thoughts more articulately. Maybe we could even get a few more people to join us who are already idling in the channel most of the time if we give people more of an incentive to join. ;)

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community driven DF Game Club sounds like an excellent idea. considering there are so few people still posting here i think it might be manageable. what i would also love to have is some more in-depth discussion, from the point of game design. i mean really getting down and dirty with mechanics etc. lets be sacriligeous as well, the gui with verbs in full throttle and curse of monkey island sucked, as we could see from the footage of gregs mom. the irony is that she was actually pretty good in solving the puzzles themselves. controls should be easily understandable, usable, trasparent and "immediate" for the main game mechanisms. the complexity and difficulty should lie elsewhere.

btw, i cant fight that old poll for the DF Game Club games. i would like to suggest star trek: judgment rites for one of the future episodes. since i would also like to start some discussion on multiple solutions for puzzles. i mean multiple solutions for pretty much everything. indy 4 was really good with that but judgment rites was even better. i bought that game almost 15 years ago for so little money from a bargain bin, without even knowning how good it was (yes, THAT cheap). i was speechless, when i started playing. what has led me to proposing judgment rites is simply that i was playing season 2 of sam & max and was quite annoyed with a couple of the crucial puzzles, because their solutions were so off mark, especially in retrospective. when that happens i flip to a suspision that this is the case for most subsequent puzzles and that is not great at all. i think that multiple solutions (i dont mean easy solutions!), if appropriate, would help the flow much better without breaking the puzzling element, which i still love.

i think that for adventure games its like every single puzzle is almost a new game mechanic. it is this trait of the genre that makes designing good adventure games so difficult. take gemini rue. it did that astonishingly well. in the dev commentary, they explained why theyve added one more, very reasonable, solution to one of the puzzles and the result was extremely natural and reasonable.

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Thanks for starting this thread! It's clear from the enthusiasm that you guys could totally run it. Seems to me the polls for picking games worked really well. Maybe we should just put together another big list of games, do a poll, then have someone keep track of a schedule for playing said games. I can promote that schedule to the DFA thread and you guys can keep it up to date. Let me know if you have other thoughts and I will think on it more too. And I DO think we should do at one more final S:S&S EP stream so I can get the Superbrothers and Capy guys on.

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Thanks for starting this thread! It's clear from the enthusiasm that you guys could totally run it. Seems to me the polls for picking games worked really well. Maybe we should just put together another big list of games, do a poll, then have someone keep track of a schedule for playing said games. I can promote that schedule to the DFA thread and you guys can keep it up to date. Let me know if you have other thoughts and I will think on it more too. And I DO think we should do at one more final S:S&S EP stream so I can get the Superbrothers and Capy guys on.

sounds good.

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Thanks for starting this thread! It's clear from the enthusiasm that you guys could totally run it. Seems to me the polls for picking games worked really well. Maybe we should just put together another big list of games, do a poll, then have someone keep track of a schedule for playing said games. I can promote that schedule to the DFA thread and you guys can keep it up to date. Let me know if you have other thoughts and I will think on it more too. And I DO think we should do at one more final S:S&S EP stream so I can get the Superbrothers and Capy guys on.

That sounds like a good start, perhaps we could do the final Superbrothers chat at some point, and at the same time try to get some of the people who want to help together in the channel to chat about how to proceed.

A bit of variety in the themes/activities of the weekly club meetings would help make it worthwhile... I think a new poll that has us playing Tex Murphy, The Last Express, Monkey Island, The Longest Journey (probably in that order), really wouldn't help more interesting stuff happen.

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One suggestion I have is for some ways to help the discussion about the games and their mechanics to have more focus. It'd be nice to see the discussion get down to the fine details, like individual puzzles, pacing, in-game hints, UI, controls, etc. I'm not sure if this should be done with some sort of questionnaire or what, but I think the DF Game Club would be a great opportunity for some in-depth discussion about adventure games.

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One suggestion I have is for some ways to help the discussion about the games and their mechanics to have more focus. It'd be nice to see the discussion get down to the fine details, like individual puzzles, pacing, in-game hints, UI, controls, etc. I'm not sure if this should be done with some sort of questionnaire or what, but I think the DF Game Club would be a great opportunity for some in-depth discussion about adventure games.

exactly what im suggesting :).

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OK, suggestion for how to proceed:

- It's clear that Greg has endorsed a community-led approach so let's proceed on that basis. The next question: do we want to select particular officers who'll have regular responsibity for stuff or do we want to keep organising stuff by the seat of our pants based on who volunteers for what.

- I think having an IRC chat about the future of the Game Club might work but I'm not sure tying it to one of the Superbrothers sessions is necessarily sensible. People currently playing S:S&S aren't necessarily going to want their discussion derailed by talk of the club's future.

In fact, think there are good reasons why we should thrash this discussion out in this thread rather than in IRC: this way the discussion is available to everyone regardless of time zone/schedule and there's a record of what's been said.

- In terms of game selection: voting is a fair way to do it, but people also want themed discussions concentrating on particular areas. How about a compromise then: we brainstorm a list of themes and randomly select, say, six or so (six games should cover us for a few months). Then for each theme whoever's in charge of the voting asks for nominations based on that theme, asking the community as a whole to suggest games which they consider notable for having interesting controls/graphics/music/puzzle design/whatever.

- In terms of the immediate future: if we're having at least one more week under Greg's supervision that gives us time to get that theme poll set up and to choose who's going to be in charge of that and who's going to be gathering nominations for games once that poll wraps up. I wouldn't mind handling the polls myself - any objections?

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OK, suggestion for how to proceed:

- It's clear that Greg has endorsed a community-led approach so let's proceed on that basis. The next question: do we want to select particular officers who'll have regular responsibity for stuff or do we want to keep organising stuff by the seat of our pants based on who volunteers for what.

- I think having an IRC chat about the future of the Game Club might work but I'm not sure tying it to one of the Superbrothers sessions is necessarily sensible. People currently playing S:S&S aren't necessarily going to want their discussion derailed by talk of the club's future.

In fact, think there are good reasons why we should thrash this discussion out in this thread rather than in IRC: this way the discussion is available to everyone regardless of time zone/schedule and there's a record of what's been said.

- In terms of game selection: voting is a fair way to do it, but people also want themed discussions concentrating on particular areas. How about a compromise then: we brainstorm a list of themes and randomly select, say, six or so (six games should cover us for a few months). Then for each theme whoever's in charge of the voting asks for nominations based on that theme, asking the community as a whole to suggest games which they consider notable for having interesting controls/graphics/music/puzzle design/whatever.

- In terms of the immediate future: if we're having at least one more week under Greg's supervision that gives us time to get that theme poll set up and to choose who's going to be in charge of that and who's going to be gathering nominations for games once that poll wraps up. I wouldn't mind handling the polls myself - any objections?

perfect.

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I made a suggestion in IRC earlier this evening that DF presence might be more doable (for what jfrisby has suggested) if it happened on a Friday afternoon when it could be incorporated into/tacked on after normal DF working time, and since most of the rest of the world is in later timezones, it'd put activities into Friday evening/Saturday morning. Obviously, it's up to Greg, etc. to make a call on their availability and interest, but this would seem to be a less awkward solution than the current scheduling (which seems to have had issues).

Arthur, I totally agree that having an IRC discussion at the same time as a S:S&S session would be counter productive. Having record of discussion here in the forum is important as well. You seem to be doing a good job so far of mediating what discussion we've had. If you wouldn't mind providing a summary every page or two and keeping the discussion on track, I think that'd be a good thing (so that we can stay focussed and so that it's easier for people who aren't taking part to see what's going on).

If we're going to do a title/theme brainstorm, that might be better conducted via IRC, I think (brainstorming has pretty poor signal to noise ratio, which doesn't really work well with forums, though obviously any outcomes/lists would need to be posted somewhere).

If Greg's willing, I wouldn't mind seeing him (or Chris?) posting the polls (we can come up with the options/content), just for the sake of making it more visible to backers and keeping it feeling like this is a community facilitated official event.

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It's important for people to look at the success of the chats so far... There hasn't been all that much quality chat about the games, necessarily (I'd guess that this is one reason why Greg, and others, lost some enthusiasm for it -- it's just hard to play and chat... and there's really only so much to discuss about any of these games).

I guess I'd suggest we pick games that are ripe for discussion and ones we could possibly get developer interaction with... Overall, I think a schedule curated by a small group is bound to be interesting than a purely democratic schedule. Pretty sure a poll is going to lead to people voting for their favorite games (regardless of whether they intend to participate in the chat -- for example, the last poll had nearly 1600 votes).

My suggestion for trying to chat in the channel was more of an idea that some of us could come by early, or stay after, the Superbrothers main chat.... and was meant to circumvent the long-winded-ness of these forum posts.

Here is how I would proceed:

1. Have Greg take a list of the next 6-months of Saturday dates to the folks at Double Fine, and see if any of them would like to sign up to do a themed discussion on their field of expertise. (this would give them first go at the schedule, and give us anchors to schedule around).

2. Slot in topical games that we can get developer interaction on.

3. From there proceed democratically on what to do with the remainder of the open dates.

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Hey, all. I'm down with a game club of any sort just to check up with once in a while. I think most people won't be able to make every event, but having it occur regularly during the weekends would be a fun way for the Adventure Game community to connect if they so wanted to. Whoever the manager(s) are for this club could post a schedule of games for future dates allowing people to join the chat and stream when they are available.

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Hey guys, I'm definitely available this Saturday for one final Sworcery game club. In the meantime, I'll talk to Chris to see what we think is the best route for handing this thing off to you guys!

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Thanks Greg!

... and who wants to help come up with questions for #trivia night?

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Thanks Greg!

... and who wants to help come up with questions for #trivia night?

I fully support trivia night.

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Hey dudes, I put a poll up. These games should keep us busy for a while! Perhaps we just play them in order of what gets the most votes?

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I voted for Maniac Mansion, though I really love Zak McKracken. Part of me just voted for MM because I wanted to get the chance to play through ZM again first!

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