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Sidequest: "Put Your Lips on That."

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But Phil wasn't just complaining about cutscenes. He was complaining about the fundamental gameplay element of adventure games.

What he- and you, in fact- are suggesting the game should be, is an action/adventure or an RPG/adventure. You're wanting to change the game's genre.

Machinarium notwithstanding, I would PERSONALLY be very reluctant to call the other games you mentioned adventures. But I digress...

Seems like the game will be more up my alley than Phil's at any rate.

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About long intros and cutscenes:

I want an adventure game to set me up before it lets me do anything of significance. I want to dive into this world and get pumped. It also helps to set the goal and give you an idea of how the logic in the game can work.

This is why I love the long intros, especially when they have awesome music, such as the Monkey Island games or Full Throttle.

I still hate it that they removed the intro from Monkey Island 2 Special Edition, but that was apparently done because modern gamers don't have patience anymore :(

With a game like Full Throttle, it gets goose bumps on my skin when the music sets in and sets the mood and tone for the rest of the experience.

(And that's not nostalgia, because I haven't played FT until 2 days ago).

I hope Reds also gets a musical intro.

On another note: Yes, Full Throttle is really short, the only things that drag it out are the action sequences which took probably most of my play time and I had to skip the car crashing challenge because it was impossible to win.

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I dont know where this problem with long cutscenes comes from, are you making games for hyperactive kids with short attention spans.

The long amazing cutscenes is the most amazing part of the old adventure games, because they set everything up so amazing the atmosphere, try having Full Throttle without that amazing intro to the game. It wouldn feel nearly as good. Its way better to have amazing cutscenes damn having to go through 2000 more lines of conversation to find out the same that you learned in that intro.

Dumbing down of games just for the sake of dumbing down and fixing problems that arent broken has to stop!.

Like it or not Lucas Art to this date still have the best adventure games, so nothing was broken.

If you wanna fix something, focus no making a 2.5D engine that can handle the same dynamic animations and stuff like the old 2d games, nobody seems particular interesting in fixing that.

The Telltalegames suffers heavly under being so static, i remember as a kids when playing Lucas Arts point n click games, so much animation and dynamic stuff, i wondered how much further they would push that in the future, sadly not at all. Games seems to become more static with each generation, its pretty sad :S

Some people say nostalgia and so forth, i play all my old adventure games atleast once every year. Because they are so good at creating this alternative place, with thick atmosphere, amazing characters that feel alive, has great personality, and sets up story and events perfectly.

Its like with the dumbing down on verbs, some changes was good, but today many point n click games have 1 click 1 option for everything. I dont think you should ever go below the ones in full throttle, its not fun to have the game play itself. actually having options to look at, talk to, kick or hit or what fits.

The streamline sickness as i like to call it has infected the FPS genre for a long time, the worst Call of duty "yeah it sells well" But so does McD and fastfood.

Luckly in the later years we have seen the good games with choices and options come back, like Deus Ex 3, Dishonored, that really makes me happy. We need the same to happen in Adventure game genre.

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Another important point that Phil makes is that too many adventure games. As well as RPG's. start you off with nothing to do. Most recently I've experienced this in The Testament of Sherlock Holmes (aside from the absurd prologue). This is also somewhat true in DOTT. Why should i interact with this new world, when I/The protagonist haven't been given anything to do/an immediate goal? It's an important motor in storytelling, and so many adventure-type games gets it wrong!

I am not talking about starting the game with: -"Rescue the princess, GO!". But rather put me to work on a simple/basic task and let me discover, the interface, the bigger objectives and the world as I go along.

Beneath a steel sky and Lure of the temptress are examples of games that gets this right!

*Edited to make more sense*

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Another important point that Phil makes is that too many adventure games. As well as RPG's. start you off with nothing to do. Most recently I've experienced this in The Testament of Sherlock Holmes (aside from the absurd prologue). This is also somewhat true in DOTT. Why should i interact with this new world, when I/The protagonist haven't been given anything to do/an immediate goal? It's an important motor in storytelling, and so many adventure-type games gets it wrong!

I am not talking about starting the game with: -"Rescue the princess, GO!". But rather put me to work on a simple/basic task and let me discover, the interface, the bigger objectives and the world as I go along.

Beneath a steel sky and Lure of the temptress are examples of games that gets this right!

*Edited to make more sense*

DOTT? You're given a completely immediate goal! "Let's split up and find Dr Fred's lab!". You gotta find his lab...

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I haven't played Full Throttle - so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but from what I've seen this episode exemplifies what's wrong with many adventure games.

1. Too many long cut scenes - without player interaction

2. Too many bogus "we can't let you advance the story until you get the three magic things" quests

Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island fell into the same trap where I felt like it was a good 15 minutes before the player got to do anything of consequence.

Books tell great stories.

Movies show great stories.

Games should embrace the thing which makes them different from other media which is player interaction.

Full Throttle should have been about riding around being a badass, instead of "King's Quest-ing" around the place looking for the "magic bike forks of destiny" or whatever.

And then to solve the puzzle only to be pushed back into town by another impassable event: the police. Wow - when does the game actually start?

I hope REDS avoids these two problems and does a better job of involving the player at the earliest possible moment and moves the story forward without time-wasting non-core gameplay.

I have very high hopes for the game, especially if it learns the lessons from previous games.

What you're describing as faults are the reasons why a lot of people love adventure games. From what I'm reading of it, you're calling puzzles "time-wasting none-core gameplay". Personally, I love a game to have a big ass cut-scene intro, get me in the mood and into the atmosphere of the game so I'm not left wondering what the hell is going on while I click around. Not all games have to dump you right in the middle of some action.

The picture on the front of the box of Full Throttle is a badass on a bike.

The point I'm trying to make is that you spend what looks like the first third of the game with no bike. And the next portion of the game unable to ride it.

Any puzzle or cutscene that doesn't contribute to the theme of being a badass on a bike is already working against the major premise of the game.

I'm not anti-puzzles, and I'm not anti-adventure games. But let's have more puzzles where the solutions involve you being a badass on a bike.

Shadow of the Colossus is about riding around on a horse and killing monsters with a sword. (Yes - and so much more!)

You don't spend the first third of that game looking for a horse, and then the next third assembling your sword. It's an appropriate and atmospheric opening scene and then BOOM you're playing the game.

As advertised.

That's the main point I was trying to make.

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@philwillis.

You don't like adventure games. Got it.

And guess what, phil? You're going to HATE this game. :D

I love adventure games. That's why I paid cash to see this one get made.

But if you have a game where the box art shows a badass on a bike and you spend the game with no bike, or unable to ride it - that sounds like there is a disconnect between the marketing and the actual gameplay.

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But Phil wasn't just complaining about cutscenes. He was complaining about the fundamental gameplay element of adventure games.

What he- and you, in fact- are suggesting the game should be, is an action/adventure or an RPG/adventure. You're wanting to change the game's genre.

Machinarium notwithstanding, I would PERSONALLY be very reluctant to call the other games you mentioned adventures. But I digress...

Seems like the game will be more up my alley than Phil's at any rate.

Tim's writing is about as strong as it gets in videogames - so I have no problems with long set pieces and cut scenes. But wouldn't that be better done as a cartoon, or a TV show or a movie?

The day Double Fine has a kickstarter for their feature film - wow - you better believe I'd pay money for that too.

The main advantage games have over any other media is interactivity. Why not capitalize on that?

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But Phil wasn't just complaining about cutscenes. He was complaining about the fundamental gameplay element of adventure games.

What he- and you, in fact- are suggesting the game should be, is an action/adventure or an RPG/adventure. You're wanting to change the game's genre.

Machinarium notwithstanding, I would PERSONALLY be very reluctant to call the other games you mentioned adventures. But I digress...

Seems like the game will be more up my alley than Phil's at any rate.

Tim's writing is about as strong as it gets in videogames - so I have no problems with long set pieces and cut scenes. But wouldn't that be better done as a cartoon, or a TV show or a movie?

The day Double Fine has a kickstarter for their feature film - wow - you better believe I'd pay money for that too.

The main advantage games have over any other media is interactivity. Why not capitalize on that?

I think there is a logical fallacy here. Just because games provide interactivity while film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do not, does not mean that games should only provide interactive elements. The true advantage of computer games is that they can do all of the things that film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do while *also* being interactive. Adventure games began with interactive fiction (text adventures), they then became something more along the lines of interactive cinema.

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Tim's writing is about as strong as it gets in videogames - so I have no problems with long set pieces and cut scenes. But wouldn't that be better done as a cartoon, or a TV show or a movie?

The day Double Fine has a kickstarter for their feature film - wow - you better believe I'd pay money for that too.

The main advantage games have over any other media is interactivity. Why not capitalize on that?

I think there is a logical fallacy here. Just because games provide interactivity while film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do not, does not mean that games should only provide interactive elements. The true advantage of computer games is that they can do all of the things that film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do while *also* being interactive. Adventure games began with interactive fiction (text adventures), they then became something more along the lines of interactive cinema.

I'd be willing to concede that games CAN do all of the things that film and comics and books and paintings and music can, but they so rarely do.

Most games don't even get close to matching ONE of those media in quality - let alone all five at once, plus interactivity on top.

I hope this game is the exception, and there's no reason to doubt it. We have top-shelf writers, composers, artists, animators and programmers.

Go team Reds!

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The title of the game is "Grim Fandango".

The point I'm trying to make is that you spend what looks like the first half of the game without dancing. And the next portion of the game not dancing still.

Any puzzle or cutscene that doesn't contribute to the theme of dancing a lively Spanish dance in a morbid fashion is already working against the major premise of the game.

I'm not anti-puzzles, and I'm not anti-adventure games. But let's have more puzzles where the solutions involve you dancing a fandango.

Dance dance revolution is about dancing around on the floor and sparking a revolution. (Yes - and so much more!)

You don't spend the first half of that game looking for a dancefloor, and then the next half writing a manifesto. It's an appropriate and atmospheric opening scene and then BOOM you're playing the game.

As advertised.

That's the main point I was trying to make.

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Another important point that Phil makes is that too many adventure games. As well as RPG's. start you off with nothing to do. Most recently I've experienced this in The Testament of Sherlock Holmes (aside from the absurd prologue). This is also somewhat true in DOTT. Why should i interact with this new world, when I/The protagonist haven't been given anything to do/an immediate goal? It's an important motor in storytelling, and so many adventure-type games gets it wrong!

I am not talking about starting the game with: -"Rescue the princess, GO!". But rather put me to work on a simple/basic task and let me discover, the interface, the bigger objectives and the world as I go along.

Beneath a steel sky and Lure of the temptress are examples of games that gets this right!

*Edited to make more sense*

DOTT? You're given a completely immediate goal! "Let's split up and find Dr Fred's lab!". You gotta find his lab...

Yeah, not only that, but once you've done that, Dr. Fred makes a point of giving you your NEXT goals:

"Step one. Find plans. Step two. Save world. Step three. Get out of my house! Let's get cracking."

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But Phil wasn't just complaining about cutscenes. He was complaining about the fundamental gameplay element of adventure games.

What he- and you, in fact- are suggesting the game should be, is an action/adventure or an RPG/adventure. You're wanting to change the game's genre.

Machinarium notwithstanding, I would PERSONALLY be very reluctant to call the other games you mentioned adventures. But I digress...

Seems like the game will be more up my alley than Phil's at any rate.

Tim's writing is about as strong as it gets in videogames - so I have no problems with long set pieces and cut scenes. But wouldn't that be better done as a cartoon, or a TV show or a movie?

The day Double Fine has a kickstarter for their feature film - wow - you better believe I'd pay money for that too.

The main advantage games have over any other media is interactivity. Why not capitalize on that?

I think there is a logical fallacy here. Just because games provide interactivity while film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do not, does not mean that games should only provide interactive elements. The true advantage of computer games is that they can do all of the things that film and television and books and paintings and recorded music (etc) do while *also* being interactive. Adventure games began with interactive fiction (text adventures), they then became something more along the lines of interactive cinema.

Very true. I do like it when games express ideas through interaction, but I think that if you insisted that they only expressed ideas through interaction you'd be taking a tool out of the box. Just like if you denied musicians the ability to use silence, or visual artists to use negative space.

Mid-game cut scenes used to be like a reward for progress through the story in an adventure game. I remember feeling rewarded when I reached a cut scene. Also, cut scenes often looked better than the actual game graphics. But graphics have improved and game designers have generally got better at telling the story in-game or through world design, so often now wedging a big non-interactive bit in between everything else can come off as clumsy. They certainly still have a place, but they have to be done well, and there's more to think about now with pacing out an interactive story.

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The title of the game is "Grim Fandango".

The point I'm trying to make is that you spend what looks like the first half of the game without dancing. And the next portion of the game not dancing still.

Any puzzle or cutscene that doesn't contribute to the theme of dancing a lively Spanish dance in a morbid fashion is already working against the major premise of the game.

I'm not anti-puzzles, and I'm not anti-adventure games. But let's have more puzzles where the solutions involve you dancing a fandango.

Dance dance revolution is about dancing around on the floor and sparking a revolution. (Yes - and so much more!)

You don't spend the first half of that game looking for a dancefloor, and then the next half writing a manifesto. It's an appropriate and atmospheric opening scene and then BOOM you're playing the game.

As advertised.

That's the main point I was trying to make.

I laughed at this ^^

In Full Throttle, I still felt like playing a game about a badass even if I don't use the bike for a good portion of the game. You use it a lot more than let's say the sword in Monkey Island 1, or the voodoo doll in Monkey Island 2, even if those are advertised on the cover.

The cover of an adventure game is not supposed to describe the gameplay, but to describe the universe and characters you'll experience and is also in this way a part of the long intro. It builds up the anticipation, creates an image in your mind.

On all the monkey island boxes the situation depicted on the cover never happens in the game at all. In that sense, Full Throttle's cover tells you a lot more truth about the game than those, as in Full Throttle you DO have the bike with you for most of the game, and in my experience, the time in which I'm actually riding the bike just riding around and knocking thugs off their bikes was more than the typical adventuring gameplay.

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In Dance Dance Revolution the manifesto part is a DLC.

More seriously, I could agree that both Grim Fandango and Full Throttle don't capture in their name that it's an adventure game. I even think this is part of the reason it took me time to hear about them (is that a contributing factor to the death of adventure games, where people didn't associate these with adventure?). In fact, LucasArts attempted a sequel to full throttle twice (in both instances they were cancelled, and that's probably for the best), but they were not about adventure game.

xjqAN72DoyU

Make one wonder if the proposed sequel to Grim Fandango would have been a Kinect game in which the purpose is to dance in the land of the dead.

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Like it or not Lucas Art to this date still have the best adventure games, so nothing was broken.

Well, yeah until Spring 2013...:)

In fact, LucasArts attempted a sequel to full throttle twice (in both instances they were cancelled, and that's probably for the best), but they were not about adventure game.

I laughed with the top-rated comment:

"Best cancel ever!!"

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The title of the game is "Grim Fandango".

The point I'm trying to make is that you spend what looks like the first half of the game without dancing. And the next portion of the game not dancing still.

Any puzzle or cutscene that doesn't contribute to the theme of dancing a lively Spanish dance in a morbid fashion is already working against the major premise of the game.

I'm not anti-puzzles, and I'm not anti-adventure games. But let's have more puzzles where the solutions involve you dancing a fandango.

Dance dance revolution is about dancing around on the floor and sparking a revolution. (Yes - and so much more!)

You don't spend the first half of that game looking for a dancefloor, and then the next half writing a manifesto. It's an appropriate and atmospheric opening scene and then BOOM you're playing the game.

As advertised.

That's the main point I was trying to make.

Probably the best post I've ever read on these forums. Glorious. :)

Mid-game cut scenes used to be like a reward for progress through the story in an adventure game. I remember feeling rewarded when I reached a cut scene. Also, cut scenes often looked better than the actual game graphics. But graphics have improved and game designers have generally got better at telling the story in-game or through world design, so often now wedging a big non-interactive bit in between everything else can come off as clumsy. They certainly still have a place, but they have to be done well, and there’s more to think about now with pacing out an interactive story.

Yeah, see I still feel that way about cutscenes; that they are a reward for getting through the game. I love 'em in adventure games...and feel like when they aren't there as often as they could/should be, it takes something away from the experience. I know one of my favourite adventure games in recent times- The Book of Unwritten Tales- if not for budgetary constraints preventing them from doing so, would have benefited significantly from more cutscenes in between chapters, because the way it jumped from one point in the story to the next WITHOUT a cutscene, was quite often clumsier than if they HAD put something in. But that may be because they START the game with a big, flashy cutscene, and don't give another one until the end of the game, so it feels off for the middle part of the game. So I dunno...

Tim seems, from what I've been seeing, to think less = more in terms of cutscenes, which i can understand, as I know he's a big fan of stuff like Machinarium...but I do hope he doesn't do away with them completely!

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Like it or not Lucas Art to this date still have the best adventure games, so nothing was broken.

Well, yeah until Spring 2013...:)

In fact, LucasArts attempted a sequel to full throttle twice (in both instances they were cancelled, and that's probably for the best), but they were not about adventure game.

I laughed with the top-rated comment:

"Best cancel ever!!"

LOL it was slated for 2003, so don't hold your breathe for it

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The title of the game is "Grim Fandango".

The point I'm trying to make is that you spend what looks like the first half of the game without dancing. And the next portion of the game not dancing still.

Any puzzle or cutscene that doesn't contribute to the theme of dancing a lively Spanish dance in a morbid fashion is already working against the major premise of the game.

I'm not anti-puzzles, and I'm not anti-adventure games. But let's have more puzzles where the solutions involve you dancing a fandango.

Dance dance revolution is about dancing around on the floor and sparking a revolution. (Yes - and so much more!)

You don't spend the first half of that game looking for a dancefloor, and then the next half writing a manifesto. It's an appropriate and atmospheric opening scene and then BOOM you're playing the game.

As advertised.

That's the main point I was trying to make.

Wahahahahah. I see what you did there.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Make one wonder if the proposed sequel to Grim Fandango would have been a Kinect game in which the purpose is to dance in the land of the dead.

What? You want another adventure game featuring Manny Calavera? Nooooo....what you really want is for Manny to join Hipster Lumberjack in Double Fine Happy Action Theatre - that's the real land of the dead for adventure game characters stuck in pergatory

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Cool video. But the alternative version of Ben's opening line has now burned itself upon my squishy brain >.< Must...unhear...the dirty words...

On the topic of cutscenes, I too love them to bits and it's actually one of the main reasons Tim's games are always set up so perfectly right from the start (helps that the cinematography and writing are amazing too). To me it's a signature trait of any Schafer game, along with the sublime voice acting, the excellent writing and unique themes. Made me sad to hear that Reds won't feature a proper, lengthy intro but I trust Tim if he believes this will work best in terms of narrative and/or resources allocation.

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Great Sidequest Ep!! Hope Tim does a part 2 :D! Two things I'd just like to say.. I am for one, so glad that you guys didn't end up getting Soundgarden on board. The Gone Jackals, perfect!! Definition of badassery that theme!!! Second, the amount of times I played Full Throttle, I never thought to get all the items in Melonweed without informing Miranda about the ambush which plays out that little different cutscene where she runs off to get the scoop on the ambush. I do love when Ben tries to ask for a lift in her car when you first talk to her thou.

Can't wait for the next episode! Keep up the good work!

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Make one wonder if the proposed sequel to Grim Fandango would have been a Kinect game in which the purpose is to dance in the land of the dead.

What? You want another adventure game featuring Manny Calavera? Nooooo....what you really want is for Manny to join Hipster Lumberjack in Double Fine Happy Action Theatre - that's the real land of the dead for adventure game characters stuck in pergatory

Yes, but then George would get royalties for Happy Action Theater and before you know it there will be a prequel to the game with annoying childish characters.

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I love all these docs. Teach me more than books ever could.

Oh yeah, and the updates are pretty spiffy, too.

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I'm watching Tim Schafer play through Full Throttle, one of my personal favourites of all time. Thanks 2 Player Productions.

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I went through those parts from age 4 to about 7 and I slowly got farther and farther. It was the game that I learnt how to learn....but watching that video brought back vivid memories form my very early childhood and pure frustration. Gaming is about frustration! But OMG did full throttle have its number of things that should have probably been changed for the benefit of everyones sanity. I do have fond memories of it though and count Full Throttle as the game that taught me everything I needed to know to appreciate every game I've appreciated since. Its also made me imagine a lot as a kid. The only reason I kept going back was because of how interesting the world was. I didn't enjoy FT as a kid for the gameplay at all, nor the puzzles. It was simply the world and experiencing originality and what can come out of someones imagination. High standards are not a bad thing. Later on I realized every criticism I have of any "great" game is based on things that FT did better. Seriously theres a lot of greatness in that game. If every game had that much character, we would be living in paradise full of genius artists pushing every discipline forward.

The red herrings like stacking the cars that took effort to implement but do nothing for solving the puzzle did nothing but confuse me and take months to solve (at 4 that is a significant part of my conscious memory), trying constantly almost every single day. The thing that FT made me imagine the most is all the other things they should have put into the game to actually make it complete...all the other red herrings and stuff that would let you know that is not the right solution and other ways you could find out what the solution is instead of always being one way to find it...those times like finding the lockpick...I was happy when I found it but I simply didn't even know there was a thing to open from the side because you can't even see it. Those things are ridiculously bad and make no logical sense, and also made me as a 4 year old really confused and frustrated.

If you put red herrings in the new game, it has to either be every single logical thing that character can do in the fictional world with its fictional rules, or absolutely zero red herrings. Having a few is simply the game designer taunting the player with mechanics that are meant to distract so the designer can get a laugh at how dumb and sheeplike the player is. If I want to feel manipulated I can play something like The Stanley Parable, Portal, Half Life, Bioshock.

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One idea touched upon during this video was double-click fast travel and whether or not to include it in 'Reds'

I think it should absolutely be supported. To not include it would indeed help with pacing for the first playthrough, but on repeat plays would only become frustrating.

Absolutely! It worries me a great deal that Greg thinks watching a character walk from one side of the screen to the next is an enjoyable thing. Why not just add more verbs so the player thinks they have more interaction than they actually do? Yeesh.

The interfaces in LucasArts games /progressed/ and evolved for good reason, don't go backwards! By the end (Curse of Monkey Island) it was damn near perfect.

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Great mayhemic episode! Still remember when I bought Full Throttle in some large special box and a Soundblaster 32 to go with it. Fired up the 486 AST and what a rush it was, called my brother to come look at how cool it was. Still love it to this day. ScummVM ftw.

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