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Episode 6: That Bagel Filter Thing

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I cannot watch the episode! :(

I am getting:

Permission Denied

Sorry, you do not have permission to watch this private video.

And yes I have logged in to Vimeo and tried just about everything else I could figure out.

So frustrated right now.

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I cannot watch the episode! :(

I am getting:

Permission Denied

Sorry, you do not have permission to watch this private video.

And yes I have logged in to Vimeo and tried just about everything else I could figure out.

So frustrated right now.

Same here. Can't watch through this forum update, or through kickstarter.

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I cannot watch the episode! :(

I am getting:

Permission Denied

Sorry, you do not have permission to watch this private video.

And yes I have logged in to Vimeo and tried just about everything else I could figure out.

So frustrated right now.

According to this forum post it might be due to the Double Fine guys/2 Player production not having payed for enough video views. What a bummer :( Hope this is doesn't take too long to resolve.

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I'm having the permission denied issue at vimeo.

I tried in three different browser, but to no avail.

Any other suggestion ?

Thanks !

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Ha. I was watching the movie before but got interrupted. Now I can't finish watching it... how frustrating!

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Ha. I was watching the movie before but got interrupted. Now I can't finish watching it... how frustrating!

SAME!!!! cant wait till fixed. Watching indie game doc to fill in the time

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I´m getting the feeling we are not gonna get it sorted until Monday evening.

It looks like they've run out of plays. None of the other videos are working.

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Just sat down with a big cookie and fired up the projector to find the videos are broken right now. Guess I should have watched it earlier at my desk.

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Grrr and I was just preparing an English muffin decked out with mozzarella and cheddar cheese so I could eat it and watch this newest update.

Looks like my date with DoubleFine delirium will have to wait.

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Sorry for the downtime! We had to buy more plays from Vimeo, didn't realize how close we were to the cap. Should be ok for another 100k plays now!

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You have to purchase the number of times 3.3 million people can watch a growing number of videos....? o.O

I hope that doesn't dig too far into anyone's budget. :-S

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Dude, can we cut down on the swearing?

Might be hard to do.

It's a group of adults working in a stressful situation solving complicated problems.

What did you expect?

This ain't an elementary school classroom.

In fact, I've heard worse on elementary school playgrounds.

Since when is stress an excuse for immaturity? I do find it annoying myself as I have to wait until my children got to sleep before I watch these episodes now. I don't want to have to explain to my 4yo what f'd in the A means. I don't expect it to get any better, it's who they are and how they work and the excellent results speak for themselves ... but this episode definitely crossed a line.

We'll have to start calling him Sailor Lee from now on!

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A great episode. It's good to see that there's a communication barrier that's been overcome, but as jonathanfrisby said earlier, it's surprising that it managed to reach the point that the documentary suggests (I'm sure that there's a lot more nuance and context that just can't fit in a single episode). At any rate, from the vibes of the previous episode, it seems like getting Bagel to do more concept stuff is a good direction - Bagel's visual style and technique is already established and can be a target for others to work towards. His inspiration and ideas on the other hand are less definable, and that seems a better area for him to influence (one that can reach deeper into the project than re-painting others' concepts could).

I hope that we'll see a little more of Marius in future episodes or maybe in a sidequest. It feels like we've only just been introduced to him, and he's already leaving :(

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Dude, can we cut down on the swearing?

Might be hard to do.

It's a group of adults working in a stressful situation solving complicated problems.

What did you expect?

This ain't an elementary school classroom.

In fact, I've heard worse on elementary school playgrounds.

Since when is stress an excuse for immaturity? I do find it annoying myself as I have to wait until my children got to sleep before I watch these episodes now. I don't want to have to explain to my 4yo what f'd in the A means. I don't expect it to get any better, it's who they are and how they work and the excellent results speak for themselves ... but this episode definitely crossed a line.

We'll have to start calling him Sailor Lee from now on!

It's understandable that you might not want children to hear that stuff, but I don't think that swearing automatically makes the speaker immature. Of course its immature when someone just spews them because it's "funny," but I don't see anything particularly wrong with what was in the video. Swear words are powerful linguistic tools that are sometimes the most effective way to communicate strong emotions or to vent frustration or anger, and it's a pretty normal thing for communication between adults to include swearing, especially in tense or emotional situations.

Besides, we were promised the whole sausage factory, warts and all, and I feel that censoring or asking people to change the way they speak while in front of the camera would take away part of that.

(I was also going to point towards the "strong language" warning that usually shows up at the beginning of these episodes, but it seems to be missing from this one for some reason.)

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(I was also going to point towards the "strong language" warning that usually shows up at the beginning of these episodes, but it seems to be missing from this one for some reason.)

Just wanted to quickly jump in and say that our standard warning bumper just slipped through the cracks this time. We'll be sure to include it again for future episodes that warrant it.

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Haven't read the previous posts.. so I'm not sure if people have talked about this..

But the whole Bagel-influence thing -- Man, that's just a downer... and I'm really confused how/why things proceeded so far along before we had this sudden "he's only a colorist-texture" guy now revelation today... Rather than the art-concept-leader stuff that is clearly more of a key to capturing his work/personality. I appreciate that we're watching this unfold in real-time, but it does seem somewhat the opposite approach to take in trying to capture his style.... I mean, surely some of you other backers noticed this issue coming a few videos ago? Maybe the DF team needs to make sure they're watching them, too?

I personally really like his work, and would much rather see the humor and surreal qualities of his work come through in the game, and have the rest of the team do their best to fake the "look" when producing the final textures/coloring. It sounds like a nightmare to have to paint the "pretty cloud world" that is the opposite of anything he would design, while everyone's saying it's based on his art.

Since there's been an emphasis on his art guiding the vision for the game from the beginning of the Kickstarter, I hope he's happy with the result, or would feel comfortable telling people to stop constantly calling this "a game in his style".. It's a fascinating idea to make a game in a particular artists style, but the logistics of doing that weren't really thought out -- maybe scrap the idea this time around.

I think it'd probably be more satisfying to Bagel, and people that are hoping to see his work come to life, to have him wholly design/paint a particular area of the world... rather than this mess that seems to be causing tension/confusion amongst all the artists.

Great update, overall -- thanks.

Well thought. I was wondering the same thing from the very beginning. Who are all these people doing concepts? What exactly is Bagel going to do?

Now it turns out, he's painting other people's ideas. I understand he's frustrated.

I completely agree with both of you. If one of the primary goals of making this game was to evoke that unique Bagel style in both content and design, why wasn't he more heavily involved from the beginning? Not just in the design, but in the concept of the game itself? I found myself getting frustrated near the end of the episode as both Bagel and Tim were separately realizing that more communication was needed between the two of them... and then it ended without them talking! (I'm assuming they had a conversation privately, but still...) It felt like the end of a romantic comedy when the boy and girl, after a few weeks of plaintively staring out windows, both realize, "Oh my gosh, (s)he's the one!" I was just waiting for the scene where they each run out of their apartments in the pouring rain and both sprint directly to the spot beneath the Palace of Fine Arts where they first met and find the other there and say "It's you. It's always been you.." and embrace while the camera spins around them and Jason Mraz's "I Won't Give Up" swells in the soundtrack. Or something like that...

Anyway, I hope they get this sorted out, even if it means retooling some parts of the game that had previously been set in stone. I realize that time and budget probably won't allow for that, but I think it would be a shame if, after all that has gone into making this game, it's not the game that they wanted to make.

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I'm slightly bummed that we've ended up with a different sacrifice girl than the one I expected and preferred.

(I voted for the same one that Mini-Schafer voted for... the one with the long braid.) But I'll recover.

I'm happiest just seeing/listening to everyone at DF and watching things evolve. Super exciting. =-)

I'm learning more from this than I ever imagined I would. And I still feel like I'm a part of it.

I liked that one too! She was my favorite for a while. But then I saw some of Scott's depiction of circle N in action and the long braid girl just started to look too meek to me. Too meek for the task at hand. But who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if she found a way into the game somewhere!

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Haven't read the previous posts.. so I'm not sure if people have talked about this..

But the whole Bagel-influence thing -- Man, that's just a downer... and I'm really confused how/why things proceeded so far along before we had this sudden "he's only a colorist-texture" guy now revelation today... Rather than the art-concept-leader stuff that is clearly more of a key to capturing his work/personality. I appreciate that we're watching this unfold in real-time, but it does seem somewhat the opposite approach to take in trying to capture his style.... I mean, surely some of you other backers noticed this issue coming a few videos ago? Maybe the DF team needs to make sure they're watching them, too?

I personally really like his work, and would much rather see the humor and surreal qualities of his work come through in the game, and have the rest of the team do their best to fake the "look" when producing the final textures/coloring. It sounds like a nightmare to have to paint the "pretty cloud world" that is the opposite of anything he would design, while everyone's saying it's based on his art.

Since there's been an emphasis on his art guiding the vision for the game from the beginning of the Kickstarter, I hope he's happy with the result, or would feel comfortable telling people to stop constantly calling this "a game in his style".. It's a fascinating idea to make a game in a particular artists style, but the logistics of doing that weren't really thought out -- maybe scrap the idea this time around.

I think it'd probably be more satisfying to Bagel, and people that are hoping to see his work come to life, to have him wholly design/paint a particular area of the world... rather than this mess that seems to be causing tension/confusion amongst all the artists.

Great update, overall -- thanks.

Well thought. I was wondering the same thing from the very beginning. Who are all these people doing concepts? What exactly is Bagel going to do?

Now it turns out, he's painting other people's ideas. I understand he's frustrated.

I completely agree with both of you. If one of the primary goals of making this game was to evoke that unique Bagel style in both content and design, why wasn't he more heavily involved from the beginning? Not just in the design, but in the concept of the game itself? I found myself getting frustrated near the end of the episode as both Bagel and Tim were separately realizing that more communication was needed between the two of them... and then it ended without them talking! (I'm assuming they had a conversation privately, but still...) It felt like the end of a romantic comedy when the boy and girl, after a few weeks of plaintively staring out windows, both realize, "Oh my gosh, (s)he's the one!" I was just waiting for the scene where they each run out of their apartments in the pouring rain and both sprint directly to the spot beneath the Palace of Fine Arts where they first met and find the other there and say "It's you. It's always been you.." and embrace while the camera spins around them and Jason Mraz's "I Won't Give Up" swells in the soundtrack. Or something like that...

Anyway, I hope they get this sorted out, even if it means retooling some parts of the game that had previously been set in stone. I realize that time and budget probably won't allow for that, but I think it would be a shame if, after all that has gone into making this game, it's not the game that they wanted to make.

You guys, creative collaboration is a messy and imperfect thing. Seeing a select few conversations that took place over the course of months might give you the illusion that this stuff is simpler than it is. When you have a group of talented people working together there are a lot of variables that all have to be solved simultaneously. No solution is perfect and quick fixes are often illusions. Things might seem really clear from where you are sitting but trust me, they are very complicated. I am very proud of how this team handles creative conflicts. It's all a very healthy part of the process.

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Dude, can we cut down on the swearing?

Might be hard to do.

It's a group of adults working in a stressful situation solving complicated problems.

What did you expect?

This ain't an elementary school classroom.

In fact, I've heard worse on elementary school playgrounds.

Since when is stress an excuse for immaturity? I do find it annoying myself as I have to wait until my children got to sleep before I watch these episodes now. I don't want to have to explain to my 4yo what f'd in the A means. I don't expect it to get any better, it's who they are and how they work and the excellent results speak for themselves ... but this episode definitely crossed a line.

We'll have to start calling him Sailor Lee from now on!

The only word your 4yo hasn't already heard from the phrase "At least we're not getting F'd in the A by publishers" is the word "publishers"

Start living in the real world.

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Tim, that last bit you talked about in the episode, about running a company and working towards a common goal and just being a leader, that was really cool.

I really identified with that.

It's not easy.

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Sorry for the downtime! We had to buy more plays from Vimeo, didn't realize how close we were to the cap. Should be ok for another 100k plays now!

I did not realize that it cost money for each play! D:

I've been rewatching the videos because I keep missing bits of it.

I'm going to watch them once from now on and wait for the digital download of the videos.

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Thanks for another interesting video. The video raised two critical thoughts.

a) I don't like the female character.

I had my own favourite and there were a number of sketches which were okay but this one, i just don't like. I'm not sure if it's the best idea to let a child choose a character design for a game which is intended more to be played by adults. In some cases this might be fine, in this case, well, it wasn't. Assumed that the character shown in the video is the final character.

b) I dislike the Bagle-Filter idea.

The best option would have been if the game could be delayed so that Bagle could do all the graphics on his own, if needed from concept to the final stage. I wouldn't mind a delayed game nor would i have problems with pledging some more in order to achieve this goal. If that's not practical i would have favoured different styles by different artists on purpose. For example, why not having Bagle's style in the fantasy world whilst someone else is completely responsible for the SF part but this way getting the most out of each artist? Sometimes, depending on the artists mindsets and their 'flexibility', working together this way can work out fine but in many cases they water down the final results. If they continue this route, i hope that at least Bagle gets enough freedom to introduce more of his ideas from concept stage on.

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Great episode as usual. The more I see of Bagel's style, the more I can't wait to see it in action.

a) I don't like the female character.

I had my own favourite and there were a number of sketches which were okay but this one, i just don't like. I'm not sure if it's the best idea to let a child choose a character design for a game which is intended more to be played by adults. In some cases this might be fine, in this case, well, it wasn't. Assumed that the character shown in the video is the final character.

For starters, I don't think it's fair to suggest that the design isn't "fine" simply because you didn't like it. I personally really like it, but I've no illusions that my opinion matters outside of my own head.

Secondly, even if Tim's daughter actually did have the final say on Sacrifice Girl's design (I doubt they'd have rolled with it if she'd picked everybody's least favourite), she was picking from a short-list, so your suggestion of age-appropriateness doesn't make any sense. She couldn't have picked anything inappropriate for the game because there weren't any inappropriate options on the short-list. Why would there be?

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It's completely fine from my point of view and that's the one i was trying to express.

If you have children on your own, best at different ages, then you know on your own how much their opinions differ, depending on how old they are - obviously, as they are going through a lot of changes and learning everything for the first time. And that's in my opinion (to maybe make it more clear this time) not the best decision if you're targeting an audience which most probably is quite a bit older.

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You guys, creative collaboration is a messy and imperfect thing. Seeing a select few conversations that took place over the course of months might give you the illusion that this stuff is simpler than it is. When you have a group of talented people working together there are a lot of variables that all have to be solved simultaneously. No solution is perfect and quick fixes are often illusions. Things might seem really clear from where you are sitting but trust me, they are very complicated. I am very proud of how this team handles creative conflicts. It's all a very healthy part of the process.

Thanks for letting us get a small glimps of all this. My small contribution to funding your new adventure is the best spent money I ever did on a game. I hope the huge success will bring even more good stuff in the future. I certainly know where I will look first when having a surplus dollar to spend. You delivered just through these docus, and then some. :)

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I think the last two episodes have been the ones of most value to myself. I want to see the conflict that occurs with the development, the different opinions and how the issues are being resolved. I´m very grateful to the team that they are willing to expose this in this documentary. Being a software developer myself (not games, not even close), I´m very interested to see the similarities and differences between the work processes in our fields, even if it´s just glimpses of them.

The game itself looks really promising even at this stage, and it was really reassuring to hear Tim talk about the puzzles and their role in the game.

I would really like to hear more from the music soon. I hope that it not only fits the game, but that there will be a strong and memorable theme music from it, something that I think perhaps is missing in other DF games.

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It's completely fine from my point of view and that's the one i was trying to express.

If you have children on your own, best at different ages, then you know on your own how much their opinions differ, depending on how old they are - obviously, as they are going through a lot of changes and learning everything for the first time. And that's in my opinion (to maybe make it more clear this time) not the best decision if you're targeting an audience which most probably is quite a bit older.

I think the point he was making was that.

a) the animated sacrifice girl we saw was actually NOT the one Tim's daughter picked. So... ????

b) Even if it had been, she picked a sacrifice girl from a small set of sacrifice girl that had been narrowed down from a much larger set. The narrowing down of that short list is owed to a forum filled with adult (or young adult) gamers voting on the ones they liked the best. So there was no way she could pick one that an adult wouldn't. She was picking from a list of girls that adults had already picked!

c) the final judge is ultimately whether Tim feels like it's working.

It has nothing to do with children and their tastes or judgment. I think you think that video of Tim's daughter carried more weight than it did.

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I appreciate that we're watching this unfold in real-time, but..

I wouldn't bet on it. I have the feeling that the conversations are "Jersey-shore" real!! :)

Or isn't it? I mean maybe indeed Bagel had this issue, but was this the real conversation?

Or are these conversations just a "representation" for the documentary?

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You guys, creative collaboration is a messy and imperfect thing. Seeing a select few conversations that took place over the course of months might give you the illusion that this stuff is simpler than it is. When you have a group of talented people working together there are a lot of variables that all have to be solved simultaneously. No solution is perfect and quick fixes are often illusions. Things might seem really clear from where you are sitting but trust me, they are very complicated. I am very proud of how this team handles creative conflicts. It's all a very healthy part of the process.

Thanks for the response, Tim. I'm sure there are a lot of nuances to the collaborative process that can't be captured in the documentary. Happy to hear that you are satisfied with the way the team is working!

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