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Levering_2pp

Episode 7, Amnesia Fortnight, and (gasp!) the Minecraft Movie?!

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For all that is worth, since I had lost interest in the project for some time around Episode 5 & 6, I think that complaining is better than not caring.

Better for whom, exactly? I don't really want to start this back up again, especially after you and SurplusGamer managed to unwind things amicably (kudos to both of you for that), but something in that statement kinda irks me a bit. Yes this forum can get a bit fanboyish on occasion (surprise, it's the forum on a game developer's official website), and yes, we really do need some voices of decent from time to time. But if you asked people what this forum could use more of, complaining would probably be pretty low on the list.

I'm tired, so I might be picking up a tone to that comment that wasn't intended. If that's the case, I apologize, but complaining for the sake of complaining, and snarky comments, don't really make this place better. I'm sure you have a lot of opinions that could add to this forum, even if they're negative, but complaining and then saying it's better than if you didn't care at all... I have to disagree.

But whatever, I'm just one dude. Just please try to be more constructive in the future. Sorry for the rant, it's just that one comment kind embodied an attitude that's by no means confined only to you, and it's been bugging me for a while.

Oh and for those of you who are curious, that video of Brad Muir talking to Giant Bomb was archived on their twitch tv page, so anyone who's interested can check it out here:

http://www.twitch.tv/giantbomb/b/369888606

They spend most of the time talking about and playing Alter Echo, which was apparently the first game Brad worked on. It's entertaining though, and there's some hilarious pictures of young Brad Muir in there.

What I meant was, that if I have the urge to complain, it means I care, it means that I am invested in the project, isn’t that a good thing? The majority of backers clearly don’t care enough about this project to even show up in these forums, to praise or scorn.

To be honest, I’m not even complaining per-se, is just that I have an opinion that can be viewed as negative and that makes it look like complaining and it is generally easier to define it as such, the reason it is not, is because complains tend to have this connotation, of appliance, like I somehow expect DF to conform to my ‘demands’. That is simply not the case.

I am not satisfied in the way they release information, from the beginning of the project, but it spiked since the last Episode, I make my dissatisfaction known, that is all there is to it really.

Would it have been better if I had kept silent of any dissatisfaction, let it build up, and then simply stop caring, about the project or stop supporting DF in general?

I’m generally not a ‘whinny’ person, when I don’t like something I tend to do something about it, clearly if DF had bothered me enough or I had lost any and all faith in this game I would have asked for a refund (if that’s even possible at this point) and never purchased another DF game again. Rather than present my view, which tends to be less, emotionally motivated than most people.

Where fanboism comes in is in the toxicity of my words rather than their actual meaning, almost like a counteragent to a biased emotionally motivated view, I would have been less, colorful in a purely logical argument of points and counter-points. As you said, somber opinions serve a purpose in a biased environment. I have also praised and even defended DF on occasion; I’m not just the local negative-Nancy (though I am a negative person in general) but my motivation was rarely emotional.

I really don’t want to start another argument, because it serves no purpose and I hope my explanation satisfies you. If it does not, live and let live.

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What I meant was, that if I have the urge to complain, it means I care, it means that I am invested in the project, isn’t that a good thing? The majority of backers clearly don’t care enough about this project to even show up in these forums, to praise or scorn.

It's good that you care about the game. That's why we're all here, right? That being said, we're all part of this community. We all are responsible for setting the tone of discourse here. I'd argue that complaints without constructive criticism or suggestions for improvement are as damaging to the discourse here as any rampant fanboyism, and not in a way that somehow balances things out. They don't cancel each other, they collectively make this place less enjoyable (at least for me, I could be alone in feeling this way).

And as a side note, I'm an introverted person. I rarely get involved with online communities, and as you can tell by my post-count, even when I do it's not to the same degree as a lot of other people. Even though I'm not posting much, I probably spend about as much time here as many of the more active members. Just because a lot of the backers aren't speaking up doesn't mean they aren't following REDS as closely as you or me or anyone else. It doesn't mean they don't care.

I am not satisfied in the way they release information, from the beginning of the project, but it spiked since the last Episode, I make my dissatisfaction known, that is all there is to it really.

Would it have been better if I had kept silent of any dissatisfaction, let it build up, and then simply stop caring, about the project or stop supporting DF in general?

I'm not too thrilled with the trickle of information recently either. You should absolutely make your frustrations known, but there are ways of doing that without making this environment more toxic, or making the situation between backers and DF more adversarial.

Where fanboism comes in is in the toxicity of my words rather than their actual meaning, almost like a counteragent to a biased emotionally motivated view, I would have been less, colorful in a purely logical argument of points and counter-points. As you said, somber opinions serve a purpose in a biased environment. I have also praised and even defended DF on occasion; I’m not just the local negative-Nancy (though I am a negative person in general) but my motivation was rarely emotional.

This is what I have an issue with, and I take issue with both sides. When we reply harshly to views that are strongly the opposite of ours, it doesn't effectively counteract those views, it simply escalates the tensions in the conversation. It makes for an adversarial environment, and that doesn't benefit anyone. The best way to counteract any irrational or hostile point of view is the reasoned discourse.

At the end of the day, we're all in the same community. You don't have to justify yourself to me or anyone else. As long as you aren't breaking the Terms of Service, you can express yourself however you choose. I'd just like to see what you could bring to the conversation if you made an effort to express your emotions and opinions more constructively. You're obviously an intelligent person, I think your opinion would be valued more if you expressed them with less hostility.

But that's just my point of view. Sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you.

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I am not satisfied in the way they release information[...]I make my dissatisfaction known, that is all there is to it really.

I think the problem comes from defending dissent (which is admirable) while using passive aggressive language:

"So it looks like if I want to learn about this game’s development I should have subscribed to third party sites available to anyone?

Damn! If only DF had told me that before I wouldn’t have wasted so much time looking for info in here."

That's passive, it's rude, and it's not productive. If you, as an adult, went and talked to your boss that way, you'd get nowhere.

The way you create meaningful and mature discourse is by leaving out the childish and passive snark, and moving right to earnest, vulnerable honesty.

I'd like to think you'd have gotten a much warmer response if you'd said, "I wish Double Fine would work harder to fill us in. I'm starting to get a little nervous. When they do interviews like the one on Giantbomb, it would be great if they posted a quick link here on the forums, so that we have access to information that appears on sites we might not normally visit. It can be difficult to hunt down each interview, especially when we don't know they've happened."

Instead of a cogent and even keeled response, you took it to a very melodramatic place, you suggested that DF is wasting your time (even though the interview can't even be characterized the way you imagined it), and you used dripping sarcasm instead of measured discourse.

I happen to love dissent, discourse and conversation. Conflict is how we grow and how we evolve new ideas. What you presented, however, wasn't the kind of progressive discourse we need. It was more like a tantrum than the start of a conversation, which is why some people are being more defensive about things than you probably expected.

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The whole thing is that we all have access to the same data, pretty much (give or take a couple of remarks one or the other might not have seen).

It's been my experience of Double Fine, after having followed them for some years, that they tend to be a pretty straightforward bunch. They make mistakes sometimes, and the games don't always come out exactly how I hope 100% of the time, but as a company that generally tries to be honest with their fans, and is trying lately to conduct themselves in a more open manner, I think they've done quite well in broad strokes, while leaving something to be desired in day-to-day communication. Which I guess is a really roundabout way of saying that I'm pretty convinced that they mean well and are trying to satisfy us.

So if there's a bias on my part it's that whenever I look at the data, it's through a lens of 'I'm pretty sure DF mean well and are trying to satisfy us.' 2PP I only really know through the documentary, so I don't really have an opinion of them yet except that I think they are good at making documentaries.

So when I see stuff like a 2 month (not 3 month, the last update from Tim was December just before christmas, it's the documentary footage that was filmed before that) gap between updates, then sure, I will interpret the data in a way that is consistent with DF meaning well and wanting to satisfy us. So I take into account the break over Christmas, which already cuts the delay down to 1.5 months. I see that a few other things are keeping the team busy right now. And I speculate that there could be other reasons they've been quiet that none of us are aware of. All that said and done, I still think someone on the DF team should have said -something- by now, or that there's an update, so I will criticise them for that (and have), but I don't want to contribute a whole lot to the angry buzz that's been going around this last week or so.

Because to be honest, I just find that exhausting. I know, or I'm pretty sure I know that Double Fine mean well and are trying to satisfy us in what they think is the best way, and even with its shortcomings I think the communication about the development has been better, more in-depth and interesting than any other game I can think of.* So I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for that effective 1.5 month lapse in communication, while at the same time as saying 'hey, guys - you should really post something, or at least let us know why you're not.' I think they'll get that message just as well as they get the message of someone who comes onto the forum guns blazing.

*(Aside: I think something that bears mentioning is that it's worth remembering DF used to be a AAA development house at the behest of publishers who kept a lock down on everything they communicated. After they stopped doing that, they still acted like one as far as communication was concerned, and why not - conventional wisdom is that you don't talk about your games until they're officially announced, and to announce them they should be at least some way into development, no matter what Sega did with Aliens: Colonial Marines. It's only with DFA that they have started deliberately trying to take a more open approach to the dev process, and so they're sorta new at this. They're going to make mistakes - that doesn't excuse mistakes, but we have to be prepared for them. I think part of the reason that there hasn't really been a response from DF on this delay is that from their perspective, as developers who used to be able to say absolutely nothing, they've been positively gushing with info, so they don't see the 2 month (well, 6 weeks minus holidays) silence as something to worry about (especially if they know, as they -might-, that a big info dump is coming soon). All of which is to say yes, they should have said something by now, but they're not doing horribly for people who are new at this.)

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*quote cut for space*

You obviously haven’t read a lot of my posts but maybe the most recent ones, because I usually tend to be very constructive and somewhat longwinded, but let me illustrate.

Logical discussion is like playing chess; both parties deploy their pieces, and then move them around, at the end of the game you can win, lose (winning is sometime losing and vice versa) or end up in a tie. When you are playing against a ‘fanboy’ you are playing against someone who is convinced of his victory before the game even began, doesn’t matter how many times you reach a check mate, they will continue to ignore it, no matter how many times you take their Queen.

Chess analogies aside, the point is, that fanboism it isn’t about opposite opinions, is about misguided opinions that run with the fuel of emotion rather than thought, like a mother convinced that her child is special because she loves it, not because it is actually special, no matter how many logical arguments you present to her for the opposite, her emotions will always win.

My general rules of engagement when it comes to fanboys are simple: Ignore, disregard, distain. If I’m utterly convinced that someone is a fanboy I do not engage them, trying to reason with someone like that is like beating your head on a wall, you won’t put a dent on the wall and you only gain a headache in the process.

But the problem here is, that I can’t always know when a person is a fanboy or not, is not like their wearing tags, and I’m not in the mood to ‘follow’ people around to gauge their sentiments, thus I give the benefit of the doubt, maybe someone actually has good valid reasons for holding an opposite opinion to mine, let’s hear them out, if in the process some blood gets shed so be it, but it is tiring, so no matter what I would never drag it.

Don’t take this the wrong way I do not mean it as a slight, but you seem to be someone who’s afraid of conflict, understandable and I agree that mindless arguing, name calling, or other sorts of immature repartee doesn’t benefit anyone. But conflict, breeds progress, the clashing of ideals breed new ones, and puts old ones to the test, is a big part of human nature, as long as people are acting with civility there’s nothing wrong with the occasional meeting of the horns.

Having said that, if I’m somehow responsible for fostering an adversarial or negative sentiment in this forum I apologize, it was never the intent.

The lack of information as of late has made us, restless, regardless of how some of us decide to go about it, which is why negative feelings seem to boil up all over the place, I’m pretty sure after the next Episode airs we’ll all be more mellow around here.

If I don’t reply any further it is not because there is nothing to be discussed, because that is what we are doing now, discussing not arguing, but because I think it would be best for me to take a break from this forum until the next Episode airs, which won’t be long anyway, but you know, start afresh and all that.

*quote cut for space*

I think you, and maybe others took my remark more grievously than I intended it, I tend to find sarcasm amusing and humorous, even when it appears venomous, but reading back on my comment I see your point.

I’m not going to edit it out, I said what I said, but I would apologize, to any DF people that might have read it, it came of needlessly rude, and it does not reflect the extend of my sentiments.

I’m usually more careful than that, but in this particular case I admit I slipped up, even if I still used sarcasm I could have worded it better.

As a side note, I’m rather annoyed but the proliferation of social media in general, and how many unrelated things require you to be singed up on Facebook or Twitter to receive information or even participate, I may have injected some of that annoyance in my post, and that’s why it came of that way, that’s not DF’s fault however I shouldn’t have taken it out on them.

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Logical discussion is like playing chess; both parties deploy their pieces, and then move them around, at the end of the game you can win, lose (winning is sometime losing and vice versa) or end up in a tie. When you are playing against a ‘fanboy’ you are playing against someone who is convinced of his victory before the game even began, doesn’t matter how many times you reach a check mate, they will continue to ignore it, no matter how many times you take their Queen.

Ah, there's yer problem. ;) Logical discussion between computers is like chess. Logical discussion between humans is more like chess where one person thinks the board is set up one way, the other thinks the board is set up the other way, nobody is exactly sure what all the pieces can do in all situations, there's a bit of disagreement over the rules and all the moves are being relayed through a very poor radio system. Furthermore, neither person has direct access to the board and is only able to see what's going on though a bunch of photographs taken at weird angles.

In other words, if you're really careful, and conduct the discussion in a very rigourous way, it can be a productive way of figuring out the weaknesses and strengths of one person's argument against another. Indeed it's probably the best way to argue, because the other way is just making assumptions and guesswork with NOTHING to go on. But it's really hard to do so and the best that can usually be managed is a few moves before an impasse is reached where each side has a more fundamental disagreement about reality which would need a whole new chess game to sort out.

The reason that philosophers don't agree, despite attempts to hold themselves to the highest standards of logical discourse, is that there's always another layer. It doesn't matter if you win on one point, if the other person questions the assumptions that you made the point from. No wonder people are questioning your checkmate when from their perspective, you just took a pawn - or they just took your king. And it doesn't require fanboyism for this kind of confusion to arise (though it's certainly one way to make sure it does)

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Lots of content.

Looking forward to the next episode.

Smiles

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Backers get ready!!!!!

"The Double Fine Adventure (Reds) series will return from hiatus this week with Episode 8 "Adventure Games are Not Dead" "

Official tweet by 2PProductions just 25 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/2PProductions)

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I really hope this new episode drops because this discussion about discussions is doing my head in :)

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Looking forward to the next episode.

Smiles

Man... if only there were more smiles on this board... :)

@Arenegeth:

I don't think you need to leave, and if you do I hope it isn't permanently. I think one of the reasons you kinda got jumped on this time is because your comments, intentionally or not, embodied an attitude of unproductive negativity that's been sweeping through here as a result of the lack of communication from DF. That's not your fault, and I'm sure you aren't even the worst offender, it just happened to come to a head with your comment. I'm not averse to conflict as long as it's respectful. Like you said it can often lead to progress, but I would argue that progress doesn't come through hostility, rather the thoughtful exchange of differing opinions. Not everyone agrees with that sentiment, and that's fine. It seems like you have a somewhat competitive way of looking at conversations and debates and that's fine, but that's no reason why we can't get along ok. You view forum conversations as a chess game with winners and losers. I don't view these conversations as contests of any sort, since I gain more from them if I "lose" than if I "win." I don't gain anything from you or anyone else being driven away from the conversation. Hopefully you'll stay or return shortly, and can contribute your views and perspective in a way that will be beneficial to all of us.

Oh and Jonathan, I dunno if it was intentional, but the way you picked that quote made me lol...

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... Typically, these are the last two things we do just before an episode airs so an update should be coming very soon...

So, go ahead - i have no problem with the fact, that the producing of the game is not easy - even with the much money of the backers. But the promise was: we see the hole process in the videos - and a delay from 2,5 month, that is not what Tim promised.

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... Typically, these are the last two things we do just before an episode airs so an update should be coming very soon...

So, go ahead - i have no problem with the fact, that the producing of the game is not easy - even with the much money of the backers. But the promise was: we see the hole process in the videos - and a delay from 2,5 month, that is not what Tim promised.

Now be fair - the delay has been longer than usual but there was a Sidequest in early Feb to tide us over, and the end of December doesn't really count, because the whole office was on a break during that time. They were pretty clear that most of the filming for this episode would begin in January, and they predicted it would be out by the end of Feb - which means right now it's about a month longer than usual (for reasons) but about a week past when it was predicted. I think DF could have been better at communication these last couple of months, but 2PP have been pretty good at keeping people up to date and explaining delays when they happen.

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... Typically, these are the last two things we do just before an episode airs so an update should be coming very soon...

So, go ahead - i have no problem with the fact, that the producing of the game is not easy - even with the much money of the backers. But the promise was: we see the hole process in the videos - and a delay from 2,5 month, that is not what Tim promised.

HI!

You should try working in the creative industry. And also, you should try that holyday stuff

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In the sidequests we see nothing about the game - sorry, that dosent count on the promise of Tim. And the holiday-season: yeah, every year, same time, there are holidays - surprising. 300K for the game, 100K for the videos that was the deal - now its 3,3 Million plus slacker backer and sorry, i see no reason why we dont get more videos and updates (by the way there are no Art/Write/Programming/Production-Updates ether this year)

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I'm just wanting to see how "the sausage is made" of the game month by month. Where as 2PP want a nice narrative documentary they can win critical awards with and sell after this is over. With development coming up to the year mark I would of expected 11/12 monthly check in's and video's. We have 7 and are missing the most crucial stage of the project.

We just have different goals it seems, I was happy up to the time that they stopped following the project to do Amnesia fortnight (Beyond the 2 weeks it was on) and Minecraft. If they had just had some kind of update (doesn't matter if it was badly edited or text only updates from the development team) in any form over the last couple of months that is DIRECTLY ABOUT THE DFA not interviewing Tim's cat or something for a side quest (Which I do enjoy but I want to hear directly about DFA and what happened that month), I would of been completely happy.

As it is we have hit marketing mode and info has been sat on. That wasn't what I was expecting, which my explain my disappointment.

I understand that this is my own fault for expecting to much but it doesn't stop me from feeling I'm not getting to follow the development process that closely.

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As for the past 2 months, we know it's been super busy at DF, but I agree it would have been nice to have some sort of update before now. But we haven't. It definitely would have been better to have a few posts from DF letting us know what the general plan for updates is, so we know what to expect. If DF learn one thing from this backlash, I hope it's that.

But I'm getting sick of every time when someone points out good stuff about the project, someone says 'But the sausage!' Watch the documentaries. Then watch the sidequests. Then go here http://www.doublefine.com/dfa and read through all the art, programming, writing updates (including the discussion after the initial posts) and if, after all that, you still tell me that you're not getting enough detail, I'll call you a liar.

And, there are reasons to be cheerful. The about-to-be-released Documentary is twice as long as usual and will fill in some of the detail of what's been going on in that time, and after that I would hope/expect the updates to start coming in more like they did before. After all, it's still possible that some of the updates are being held until the documentary release, so the cool stuff in the documentary doesn't get spoiled. I'm okay with a longer wait, as long as we get the details filled in eventually. If in another month we're still wondering where the updates from Double Fine are, then I would say at that point we've got a serious problem. But right now? A lapse in what has otherwise been a very detailed view of the process spread across various media. I'm glad people are calling it out, but I don't think the criticisms should extend to the project as a whole.

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That is not the point: When they have no time or bad luck or holidays or brütal legend or whatever then they have to inform the backers about all the problems - that was the deal. a short video from tim or text-update or what ever. They have the money, we trust in the promises of tim and know they have to deliver - and i dont want to read justifications from the fans and members of the forums, i want to see and read offical updates from DF specialy from tim - he asked for the money, he has to deal with it

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That is not the point: When they have no time or bad luck or holidays or brütal legend or whatever then they have to inform the backers about all the problems - that was the deal. a short video from tim or text-update or what ever. They have the money, we trust in the promises of tim and know they have to deliver - and i dont want to read justifications from the fans and members of the forums, i want to see and read offical updates from DF specialy from tim - he asked for the money, he has to deal with it

Eh calm doon mate :P I'm sure all will be explained in the next video update, reason for delays and silence on the forums, maybe even an apology maybe! We know the update is coming soon, so lets just wait for the bundle of info we're about to recieve! :D

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That is not the point: When they have no time or bad luck or holidays or brütal legend or whatever then they have to inform the backers about all the problems - that was the deal. a short video from tim or text-update or what ever. They have the money, we trust in the promises of tim and know they have to deliver - and i dont want to read justifications from the fans and members of the forums, i want to see and read offical updates from DF specialy from tim - he asked for the money, he has to deal with it

So actually that is the same point I made. And keep making repeatedly. They they should communicate about delays better.

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Ok, we all agree the lack of communication was the problem.

Let's move on and wait for the awesome 40min episode 8. :)

Cheers!

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And the holiday-season: yeah, every year, same time, there are holidays - surprising.

Word. DF & 2pp should be totally fed up with having this same holiday season every year, and just keep working instead. ;-)

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Hey guys, I've only had time to skim through these last few pages of posts so I can't comment on many of the issues that have come up (yet -- I would like to go back and read through more thoroughly when there's a break in the schedule). I did, however, want to keep you posted on some recent developments:

The good news is that the episode is now complete and in the process of being uploaded to Vimeo. We're just putting together some show notes and then Chris will do what he needs to do on his end to put the post together / send out the update / etc.

Shouldn't be much longer now.

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@Asif_2PP I hope you understand that it's not 2 Player people are upset about. The complete lack of any communication from Double Fine is the issue since a running dialog is what was promised in the Kickstarter.

Cheers and Keep up the GREAT Work!!!

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I hope when I get off work tomorrow, we'll have an episode! It'd be a nice way to end the week.

Smiles

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