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Episode 7, Amnesia Fortnight, and (gasp!) the Minecraft Movie?!

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This is a classic love story.

Boy meats girl.

Boy falls in love with girl.

Boy loses girl.

Boy finds girl again.

Girl falls in love with boy.

A classic love story.

Either way, i dont mind how much time this game takes to make. It will be:

1) better than Daikatana

2) worth whatever $15 i paid for already by the sheer amount of content and behind the scenes.

(note to developers: even though i am slightly money strapped...i would gladly pay another $15)

(edit: have only watched 5 minutes but have to do what wife says at the moment. oh shes getting angry. quick send. must stop typing.

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IMHO a 2nd kickstarter (or and other new fund raiser) spoils quite a lot of the fun to see the team overcome the problems they are facing on their own.

This documentary is a story about a game that started as a $400.000 idea and turned into something much bigger ($4.000.000), but in the end we all pledged for a $10-$20 game, so there is no way we can expect a $50 game done.

Maybe scale the game size back down to the $10-$20 range and do a part2 (or big DLC pack - missing episodes) after releasing this.

Or setup a preorder on Steam (pay now to receive exclusive access to the documentary and the game when ready).

This is really interesting, because there are so many kickstartes that just got $300.000-$500.000 to work with and I'm really curious how these games will get made.

Oliver

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This is really interesting, because there are so many kickstartes that just got $300.00-$500.000 to work with and I'm really curious how these games will get made.

Oliver

I suspect a lot of them have bitten off more than they can chew, but will struggle to accomplish their task regardless.

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IMHO a 2nd kickstarter (or and other new fund raiser) spoils quite a lot of the fun to see the team overcome the problems they are facing on their own.

This documentary is a story about a game that started as a $400.000 idea and turned into something much bigger ($4.000.000), but in the end we all pledged for a $10-$20 game, so there is no way we can expect a $50 game done.

Maybe scale the game size back down to the $10-$20 range and do a part2 (or big DLC pack - missing episodes) after releasing this.

Or setup a preorder on Steam (pay now to receive exclusive access to the documentary and the game when ready).

This is really interesting, because there are so many kickstartes that just got $300.00-$500.000 to work with and I'm really curious how these games will get made.

Oliver

Good idea - pre-orders on Steam!

The idea of doubling the number of scenes that was mentioned doesn't sound like good logic, money-wise. They definitely need to scale back - suck it up and survive...

Good point on the $300-$500 game - that's obviously NOT enough money to pay a developer and artist to do anything decent,much less pay themselves - I haven't seen these kickstarters, but they're obviously low balling the number they really need... they're in denial of how much time and money things really cost.

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Hi,

first time poster here, but I want to add something to the discussion.

A second Kickstarter sounds like a great idea at first. A lot of community members have a high emotional investment in the project and are willing to give more. So, all good, right? Maybe ... but maybe not.

I'll come out and say it: A second Kickstarter can, in my opinion, never be an option, and here's why:

As Tim said in the video, DF is the poster child for crowdfunding. Now, imagine them publically opening another Kickstarter round. Imagine the media backlash.

"They asked for 400.000 originally, but now even 3.3 Million aren't enough!"

"If even Double Fine can't manage their budget, how should we ever trust other Kickstarters?"

"I will give some more money, to have them finish this game, but next time I will not trust them this easily."

I am certain, that the whole internet would be abuzz with quotes like this. Just probably much more toxic. Yes, DF are the poster child for crowdfunding, and as such, they have a responsibility, that goes above and beyond just finishing REDS. They have to prove, that turning their company into a mid-size indie developer (something that is still very rare) is a viable business option. They have to prove, that the paradigm shift they brought into this industry is a viable concecpt for the future. Asking for top-ups right now would be incredibly short-sighted. The eyes of the entire internet are on this project, and by going back to the well before it's finished, they will only poison it. This is about so much more, than just a single game.

And let's think ahead even more. Let's imagine, the second Kickstarter is a success anyway. Suddenly, Tim and his team have 1.5 Million more. Once again, the game needs major rescheduling and added content.

That being said, I don't think the situation is all that bleak anyway. As Tim said in the update, editing is always necessary. That's not a bad thing. In fact, trimming the fat often helps to improve the narrative pace, so I am sure there are some passages, the game will be better off without in the end. This will save some time, without a doubt.

Reorganizing the workflow of the team, rethinking the schedule ... now, that they are in the thick of the project, that should be possible as well. Might also save a couple of weeks.

And lastly, with money from the Amnesia Fortnight and recent X-Mas Sales, they will probably be able to add some development time anyway. If they creatively weigh out their options, they will be able to develop the game longer. Maybe not until September, but that might not be necessary anyway, when everything is said and done.

So, to me, it will be really exciting to see where they go from here. But I am certain, that creativity and resourcefulness will be rewarded much more, than just another Kickstarter. Because I, for my part, will happily support another DF Kickstarter - but not for this game. I really think that would be a bad precedent.

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Re: Ask notch for money

Re: Ask Dracogen for money

Something about this strikes me as weird. That would be like if a person held a door for you once, and then after that you stopped in front of every door and asked them to get it for you. It's a little less weird in regard to Dracogen, since he's a well-known investor and has helped with numerous DF projects, but with notch it is much weirder. If a friend/stranger does you a favor, it is probably not great to think, "Oh, he is volunteering to do this for me from now on whenever I want it." Plus, you don't even know if asking these two for money is the same thing. Dracogen does angel investment, but all we know is that notch wanted to help make Psychonauts 2 happen. Does that mean he was offering free money? For all we know, some other kind of arrangement could have been hypothetically discussed in that matter.

I dunno. It just seems a little brazen to ask a benefactor to give more. Maybe they'd be fine with it, and maybe that sort of thing happens all the time. Could just be my own idiosyncratic moral sense, but it strikes me as a weird sort of thing to do.

Re: Do another kickstarter

I think there are super hardcore devoted fans in the community who would be way cool with that, but there were over 87,000 backers. It's safe to say that the vast majority of those people are not here posting in the forum. And also consider PR. There are all kinds of gaming news outlets that would be willing to report on that event as a story, and the author of that story may or may not be a supporter of the project and may not be very sympathetic. We wouldn't even want one unsympathetic journalist to construe a second kickstarter as a sign that the first kickstarter was therefore technically a failure. I'd almost bet money that someone would spin it that way. (I'd even put money on specific names/sites.) The DFA was greeeeeat publicity for Double Fine, and the last thing we want is to turn a bunch of hugely positive publicity into a bunch of hugely negative publicity for a few extra bucks that might not even be enough.

Re: Permanent pay-what-you-want paypal donations

This seems interesting to me. A general donation to Double Fine isn't the same thing as donating to DFA twice, or three times, or fourteen times. But if DF wanted to take a bunch of money from general donations to the studio and apply them to DFA, then everything is still wonderful. But even putting the DFA aside and thinking in broader terms, it might be nice to have something like that up all the time for a number of reasons.

1) Fans often express their desire to do something nice for Double Fine, and throwing them a few dollars and a love note is a great default option.

2) Fans often want to give money to DF or its projects, but they don't always have the money on hand when the window is open. But what if there were a window that was always open?

3) Sometimes with something like the DFA or AF, fans will pay a certain amount of money first, but then the more they enjoy what they see or the more info they find out, they find they want to give a little bit more.

Which is all a way of saying that it might be nice to have a button that served as something like a DOUBLE FINE TIP JAR.

Maybe you really like the progress you're seeing on a game, or maybe you really like how actively the devs have posted in the forum lately, or maybe one of the programmers took the time to write out a really long and esoteric programming post that was exactly the sort of thing you wanted but you notice you are the only person who commented! Maybe you just wake up one morning and remember how much you love Psychonauts or play a round of Iron Brigade, and you just feel like saying thanks. Could be anything.

*click* DF gets a happy little tip.

If they're getting really into community involvement and expect that they'll be continuing to interact with the fans, it's maybe not so crazy. On the other hand, I have never been the CEO of a company, and perhaps there is some kind of legal reason for not doing that.

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This is really interesting, because there are so many kickstartes that just got $300.00-$500.000 to work with and I'm really curious how these games will get made.

Oliver

There was a nice post about this on the Frictional Games blog three years ago. $100.000 was 6 months for them, while underpaid.

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This is a classic love story.

Boy meats girl...

What kind of love story are you telling here?! :gulp:

@Anemone: I like the idea of a tip jar, but I'm not sure it would get enough use to really affect the development of Reds. I could be wrong, though. It would certainly be interesting to find out. The ability to add a tip to any purchase you make through the Double Fine store would be nice too. As much as I'd like the chance to increase my pledge for digital rewards (not through a second kickstarter, just directly to DF), I could see how such an option might be unpalatable to some people. I agree that kickstarter should be off the table for this project at this point though.

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This is a classic love story.

Boy meats girl...

What kind of love story are you telling here?! :gulp:

Oh darn. Was making corned beef at time of hurriedly tying and avoiding the better half.

Beef on the mind.

Either way, good story.

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Tim when starting his kickstarter campaign promised to deliver an adventure game and in parallel show us how it is developed. Well this last video shows us just this: that many times when you try to deliver a project you have to face situations where you have to make compromises. This happens all the time in IT projects, and gaming industry is not an exception as well. I don't think that he wants more money from us. What he tries to show us, is the real world of game development. I think this is, also, what he implies in his last message towards us.

After all it wouldn't be fair and to request for more money when he initially projected a 400.000 budget, even if the scope was become bigger. Think of it, this will question his reliability as a manager as well. Moreover companies have their own resources as well, which could redirect to projects with high potential. Think again, why would Tim want to make a project based solely on contributors money, without investing DF's money as well? The only reason I would think is if he did this project merely as an obligation towards us. If in other words he didn't believe in his project. But probably this is not the case here!

To conclude, rest assured. Tim is many years in the industry and he knows how to overcome such situations. He will request no more money to finalize his projects. I don't think that he needs them. You will see by yourselves.

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Although I reckon the extra cash could be raised via a 2nd round of backer funding, I think this would be PR suicide.

Already, the press isn't writing "The scope is massively larger than they thought it would be when they set their $400k goal, that's why it's taking so long. Check out the documentary for explanation". The press is writing "DFA is late!!!" http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/the-kickstarter-successes-where-are-they-now/ (to be fair, they can't see the documentary so might have no clue).

With a 2nd round of backer funding, the headlines will be "DFA has spent all your monies! Kickstarter doesn't work!"

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I really don't see the problem getting more funding for this project. Why don't you guys simply do the same as Chris Roberts with "Star Citizen"?

Even after the official campaign ended, existing backers can upgrade their pledges and new backers can pledge for most of the original tiers with slighty higher prices. Nobody is complaining, there is no bad press (which would definitely happen for doing a second Kickstarter) and the project has made a million dollars since the Kickstarter ended. Funding another couple of months for DF would be a piece of cake.

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I would much prefer the project to be funded by the crowd funding campaign. If an experienced development studio like Double Fine, with Tim Schafer as project lead with years of experience, can't manage a project like this, it doesn't look good. Obsidian's DLC model makes a hell of a lot of sense, so if Tim wants to increase the scope, stick it in the DLC, fund the DLC through sales of the game or through other means even a publisher although I'd prefer that didn't happen. Trine 2 and Orcs Must Die 2 have excellent uses of DLC to expand the main campaign. Think of the game and systems work as more of a platform for the content, that can be extended. Using sales from the DoubleFine catalogue to support this game is a risky investment. Shorter games aren't bad, Tales from Space: Mutant Blobs Attack is a perfect size for me, Stacking is my second favourite adventure game it didn't take me long to play through. Also, buy all the games I mentioned, they're incredible.

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If Tim does not wish to attempt an "add-on"campaign (even though I'm pretty sure negative comments _could_ absolutely be preempted with a properly phrased pitch), that's his decision. However, please, do not for a second imagine that you could raise a comparable amount of public contributions by other means (tip jar, donate, buy other stuff etc.) - I'm absolutely sure there are order(s) of magnitude of difference in what could be raised. I'd love to support DFA further, but this way that won't happen.

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With a 2nd round of backer funding, the headlines will be "DFA has spent all your monies! Kickstarter doesn't work!"

And that would happen if DFA takes money of any source besides the initial Kickstarter. Some people will think that Double Fine does not know what it is doing, that was out of control when saw all that money, and that is not nice, because it's not true.

I think it's really important for this project to be funded only with the Kickstarter money, because this is the project that started all this Kickstarted thing (or at least made it popular).

But, if you really think you can not make it, I'd give more money. We're your publisher, after all.

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even though I'm pretty sure negative comments _could_ absolutely be preempted with a properly phrased pitch)

There is only one way I can perceive a second round of Kickstarter generating minimal backlash and that is increasing the scale of the game even further and presenting it as a revolutionary adventure game.

Even then they will need to add a partnership with another studio into the mix (a Japanese studio like Level 5 in particular would get fans roaring), the involvement of another IP (let’s say from indie favorites like Braid) or voice work from some fan favorite talent.

Even with all of that there will still be backlash, and just the logistics involved with my examples above would shoot the additional requested budget for like up to 3 mil (not to mention sharing the profits), on top of the existing budget that would make this game one of the most expensive adventure games of all time.

I don’t know much about the other Kickstarter projects that had second runs, but they were all low profile projects, what I know from Star Command is that it was a complete case of mismanagement (the devs spend half the money they got buying ipads for crying out loud) and that the second run upped the scale of the game, than just asking for more cash.

A second KS run and a Publisher are not an option, without generating substantial backlash as others have noted already.

And just to be clear, in case there is some delusion among some of us backers that we actually have a say in what DF does and doesn’t do, realize that they knew they couldn’t make the game on the current budget/scale two months now and it was only made Public yesterday, they probably have found solution since then and we won’t know until they want us to know, obviously our input will not really affect any decision they make, and our input has been minimal since this project started anyway.

I personally believe that is the way it should be; we were never supposed to replace the Publisher’s manacles with our own.

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I don't understand why they basically closed down funding once the KS campaign ended. I think this project would have easily brought in a few hundred thousands more at least with a longer funding campaign (while still offering rewards).

I had little money at the end of the campaign and could only afford the $60 tier. Ironically, the day after the campaign ended, I received the largest paycheck of my life and would have bumped my pledge to $500 or perhaps even $1000. I'm sure there are more with similar stories. I also got a few friends to slacker back who would have contributed more if they could have.

So yeah, they could have gathered a good bit of extra money. Now though, I think it is too late for a second crowdfunding campaign. Save that for the next game.

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One more thing, I don't think anyone could get the impression of mismanagement, if DF put in some money of their own.

Fact is, there was no design for the game before the KS. There were no stretch goals, no promises about game length. The actual scope (which none of us knows) developed during the design phase. Now, that the team have a scope, they need to work out how to proceed from here. And as Tim said, there will be a number of solutions involved.

But if one of these solutions means: "Our vision expanded during development, so we had to add some of our own money." - that's not bad management. That's professionals, being prepared for production problems.

And, yes, the video takes place two months ago. Before the Amnesia Fortnight, before christmas. Before Tim rethought, what to edit and what not. I have no doubt, that DF is already in a much better place right now.

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I have never been a part of a creative process, or major project that doesn't look like this. It's painful, and stinks at the time when going through it, but like he said... it generally always looks a lot better when on the other side. Tha ks for the updates, and I can't wait to see what happens in the new year!

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I thought DFA always was a masterclass in how to make a cool game on a budget and in a short period of time. It's great that it ballooned into something bigger, but we shouldn't forget it's roots. They were going to try an make this for $400k.

Tim's right when he says talented people don't come along everyday, and he's lucky enough to have around him a small private army of artistic samurai - a smaller tighter game of the calibre these insights suggest isn't a bad thing.

Also, if they can turn around this project on or under budget, it means that this sort of thing is more likely in the future. I think $3million+ was an anomaly, a happy wonderful accident that we were all part of. But a future kickstarter, for DFA2 or whatever, probably won't be as magic, BUT if DF can turn around awesome projects in a few short months, then we won't have anything to worry about.

If Tim says he's ready to kill babies, that's good! :)

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I have no regrets at all. This is exactly what I wanted to see from this documentary. I love learning about the realities of game design, and 2 Player Productions is doing an incredible job capturing it. I'm very much looking forward to the upcoming episodes. Thank you all for your hard work. You're making us backers proud.

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I thought DFA always was a masterclass in how to make a cool game on a budget and in a short period of time. It's great that it ballooned into something bigger, but we shouldn't forget it's roots. They were going to try an make this for $400k.

I think what you're missing is that even if Tim only got the 400K he would still be having this problem. As others have pointed out this game had no vision or design prior to the kickstarter. This is a natural part of the creative process. Tim wants to make an incredible game, and money is hard to factor in at the very start of determine what that game will be.

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While I sincerely appreciate the honesty, I am disappointed that we're here. It seems like Double Fine would have been better off getting just the $400k as that might have been in their capacity to budget properly.

I've gotta emphasize that I'm still rooting for Double Fine and the good people in it but now I'm just more "meh" about the project. I don't regret contributing the small amount I did but Double Fine seems to still be learning a lot more than an experienced company should.

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Guys, remember, a development team finding out that they'll have to cut content or become more efficient to stay within budget? Completely normal for game development. There's no need to start calling for another Kickstarter or anything like that. You don't tend to hear about stuff like this because they just don't talk about it, but it is actually really unusual for something like this to not happen while a game with a set budget is being developed.

Double Fine has previously gone through much, much worse and still delivered a great game despite the adversity. Being unceremoniously dumped by Microsoft while developing Psychonauts nearly caused DF to have to shut down for good. Brutual Legend was in limbo while it was between publishers. The prototypes from the first AF saved DF's bacon when Brutal Legend 2 was suddenly canceled.

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I agree with Syd here. Double Fine doesn't need another Kickstarter to fund the rest of this project. Double Fine might not even need more money if they manage to complete the project by the end of April. They're planning on using their own funds from the sales of their games to fund any additional development time. If you're worried about it, you can always buy something off of their Store or their games from Steam. Double Fine also set up a PayPal account which you can use to directly deposit $30.

Since The Cave is nearly done (But it probably is) that'll free Ron Gilbert to help Tim Schafer write the dialogue. It's easy to write up a story, but it's even harder to create personality, dialogue and humor. You can also bet that a couple more Double Finers will join the project since their schedule has opened up. I'd imagine that this project is even more special for Tim Schafer and his company now; he's not going to destroy his baby.

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I'd imagine that this project is even more special for Tim Schafer and his company now; he's not going to destroy his baby.

Well this is actually THE PROBLEM. They SHOULD NOT be so worried about making DFA the best adventure game yet. That is what has killed other ambitious projects (Duke Nukem, Daikatana,etc). They should not even be worried about DFA being very good. Just decent quality should be enough for their 1st adventure game.

I didn't donate for getting the best adventure game ever, i just donated for DF to start making adventure games again by bypassing the publishers.

My opinion is:

a) don't make another kickstarter / donation effort

b) don't take the deadline / budget too much farther than initial goal

c) cut down features / levels

Creating more adventure games in the future is MUCH MORE important IMO than striving to create a top notch adventure game now.

Also the funding covered the creation of the engine and tools (scene editors,etc). Obviously these should be used in later games, therefore current costs should be also considered as an future investment, not as current DFA overall costs.

cheers,

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I'd imagine that this project is even more special for Tim Schafer and his company now; he's not going to destroy his baby.

They should not even be worried about DFA being very good. Just decent quality should be enough for their 1st adventure game.

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." - Shigeru Miyamoto

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They should not even be worried about DFA being very good. Just decent quality should be enough for their 1st adventure game.
It's the other way around. This sets the precedent about what an over-funded Kickstarter adventure game should be like. If it's average or worse, there will be less people coming back to adventure games. They need to get this one right while they have the community's attention, so people come back for more. Settling for average is the worst thing they could do.

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I see what you're saying corfu but I have to disagree. They raised over 8x what they asked for, and it's going to set the precedent for adventure games and needs to show publishers that there's a market, etc. If the game is "mediocre" it's not going to sell outside of those of us who already backed. It needs to be a hit.

And also, I want to play a game that's on par with all the other great adventures (Grim, DoTT, FullT, MI, etc.) - I did donate for that.. and would be happy to up my pledge.

I agree, they shouldn't and cant' start another kickstarter, but why not a page here to "increase your pledge, and increase the scope of the game!" With a meter that shows how much has been raised by pledge uppers. Just like the original kickstarter, it could say - $200,000k buys us 2 more months as a team, which means more polish more dialogue, and aprox 2 new zones/3 puzzles // $400,000k buy us 4 more months, which includes the previous tier + 3 zones and more cutscenes // etc. Or something like that

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