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lastSKYsamurai

Best way to Directly Support REDS Project further?

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I think we should do nothing and let DF do what they do best and thats make games. normally people like us don't get to see or be a part of this proccess and if DF haven't told os anything about something has to be cut we wouldn't have cared less when the game launched if it lived up to the hype.

nobody like to year things get cut but they do and that may or may not be a bad thing just have to wait and see.

and again when the game has launch and sold well they can put this content out with the money they have earned from the sales and sell it like a direct cut add on and maybe give it to the backers for free.

I have faith in them so they figure it out

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A second kickstarter would be nothing but a complete backlash of negativity throughout every gaming publication and every gaming community with this one as a possible exception. You can't raise this much over your initial goal, and then come asking for more. Every bit of goodwill DF has gotten from this kickstarter would be destroyed by it. A second kickstarter or publisher interference cannot be considered as options. They either get additional funds somewhere else, and/or cut planned contentent.

The only backlash would be if a publisher got involved as the indie badge was a big selling point. Everybody knows that the big issue with early Kickstarters is dealing with the huge cost of shipping (Mainly international) and issues with items "lost in post" or "split deliveries" that have to be paid for twice or more. This just wasn't known to be a big issue back then and that lost money has to come from somewhere.

I would reach into my pocket to help with that shortfall and I don't think people will get offended about me spending my cash unless they have quite deeply routed problems in their life.

It's not so much about what a couple of supporters would think, but as what it would send as a message to the whole idea of crowdfunding.

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I apologise about my recent comment and I am well aware I could have worded it a hell of a lot better. I won't edit it because that will be absolutely bloody stupid.

Yes, I did read Tims' message at the end of the update and I agree with everything stated. I'm also a firm believer in letting the backers have some kind of say in the development of REDS. Not so much in the 'publisher/developer' relationship that I botched up in my last reply but at least financially. We as backers donated and pledged on good faith that Double Fine would make a game within the scope of the budget. After episode 7 we can clearly see that that's not going to happen. It's the very nature of game development.

Reading this thread and seeing that I'm not the only one who wants REDS to be the best game it can be and am willing to donate/pledge more money to get the game done is quite refreshing. It shows that this game isn't just important to Double Fine; it's important to all of us backers. Some backers want to let Double Fine do what they do best and that's fine. Some backers want to give a little more to Double Fine and that's fine too. All of us want what's best for this project.

At the end of the day, the last line of my last reply still stands - if a few backers are more than willing to give more money to further fund development of REDS then why deny them the option? As backers of the project, don't we at least have a say in that?

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I think everyone is just overreacting a bit here. No its not the best situation, but this kind of thing happens all the time in the creative process. I'm a writer myself, worked on a few novels and this kind of thing happens all the time. You start planning and start coming up with all these great ideas and before you know it you've got half a million pages worth of notes and you suddenly realize you can't really do that. Then I have to worry about self publishing it, or finding a publisher, etc.

The point is this sorta thing happens all the time. I would love to donate more money if I weren't completely broke, and if you want to donate more money or buy more DF games, then go ahead. But you shouldn't be worried because sometimes scaling back your original ideas are just part of the process. Its not always fun, but sometimes its necessary. Everyone just calm down, and carry on.

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I apologise about my recent comment and I am well aware I could have worded it a hell of a lot better. I won't edit it because that will be absolutely bloody stupid.

Yes, I did read Tims' message at the end of the update and I agree with everything stated. I'm also a firm believer in letting the backers have some kind of say in the development of REDS. Not so much in the 'publisher/developer' relationship that I botched up in my last reply but at least financially. We as backers donated and pledged on good faith that Double Fine would make a game within the scope of the budget. After episode 7 we can clearly see that that's not going to happen. It's the very nature of game development.

Reading this thread and seeing that I'm not the only one who wants REDS to be the best game it can be and am willing to donate/pledge more money to get the game done is quite refreshing. It shows that this game isn't just important to Double Fine; it's important to all of us backers. Some backers want to let Double Fine do what they do best and that's fine. Some backers want to give a little more to Double Fine and that's fine too. All of us want what's best for this project.

At the end of the day, the last line of my last reply still stands - if a few backers are more than willing to give more money to further fund development of REDS then why deny them the option? As backers of the project, don't we at least have a say in that?

You said you read tims message but you still failed to understand every game they cut parts to make the budget. Which they will probably do though they might invest some extra because it will help them to become more independent.

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You said you read tims message but you still failed to understand every game they cut parts to make the budget. Which they will probably do though they might invest some extra because it will help them to become more independent.

Who says he failed to understand every game has to cut parts to make budget? I understand that and yet I still want to contribute more to see as little cut from the vision as possible. Yes, sometimes trimming the fat is good. Yes, if you had a 10 million budget the same thing would happen most likely.

All that said, many of us are still willing to up or pledges to see more of the current vision and scope fulfilled, and hate to see the brilliant things that Tim thought up for the original narrative and creative scope be chopped down too much

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And RE: the publisher/developer relationship, that IS true... but NOT in the sense of the negative connotation of most of these relationships. The relationship was that we trust DF to make a great game on X parameters, and we'll fund it. If Double Fine made a first person shooter with a few dialogue trees, that would breech our agreement and piss a lot of people off. So yes, we do have some say in the macro sense - but we also agreed that we don't want to micro manage. We trust Tim and the team to do that.

But we do have say in the funding sense... we funded it with our money! We paid for what's happening right now, collectively. You're right 87k voting would be disastrous and we don't want to own the creative process. But as funders, if we want to voluntarily fund more there should be some sort of official and tangible avenue for that beyond supporting Double Fine as a company via merch and other games. One that is cool about crowd funding is we HAVE in fact been part of the process. The forum updates, the polls, the documentary, the threads asking for creative location ideas, etc. It's a great role - it's a supportive, suggestive, funding role that let's double fine have total control, with us the backers paving the way.

The poll here shows that 2/3 of people would like to lay more pavement, so to speak, and would be happy to up their pledges and donate more, but many would like some sort of avenue. I suggest something like Star Citizen has in place. It's not begging for money, it's not saying we can't do this otherwise, it's saying "hey... if you want to see even MORE goodness, the doors are open!"

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This is an example from a completely different game from a completely different genre but still has some significance to the topic at hand - Mirror's Edge. Playing the game was mostly enjoyable (apart from the hand-to-hand combat) but what I was looking forward to most was the story line. Considering the writer for the game was Rhianna Pratchett I had relatively high hopes. To my surprise, a hell of a lot was missing from the story and if anything, the only part in the game that really felt genuine was the internal monologue Faith had when collecting the last hidden bag. From this interview (link) she reveals that A LOT of the game was cut. In another article it was estimated that at least 40% of the game was removed.

Is scaling back, trimming down the fat and focusing on the core of the game a good thing to do? Absolutely. The issue that I have is how MUCH is going to get cut. In the case of Mirror's Edge, the core of the game remained intact but in doing so the story suffered immensely. THIS is what I'm trying to help DF avoid. Will the core of REDS remain intact? No doubt about it. How much around that core will be removed and thus make the experience feel less enjoyable? No one knows for sure. I have confidence and faith in Double Fine but I also want to do my part in trying to stop as much content from getting cut as possible, just like dsc and a few others who have expressed interest.

Seeing as the episode showed development from more than a few weeks ago, the REDS team may have figured out what needs to be done. However, if the team ever needs a small boost I'm more than willing to contribute.

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My feelings on this subject are sort of evolving, and I feel like I should share my thoughts.

As I've said before on this forum, I would donate more if Double Fine asked us to. That said, I think that to watch the latest episode of the documentary and walk away thinking "oh no, they're going to cut out a bunch of stuff and they're hurting for money oh god I'm gonna panic" is entirely missing the point.

I have worked for many companies in my life, and been involved in many projects, most of them creative in some way. For every creative project I've been a part of, there has *always* been a certain point where the team had sort of this "oh crap" moment where we looked at the work in front of us and realized we couldn't meet our goal at the current rate. This is something that happens naturally during the making of essentially any creative project, and it's entirely natural.

This "oh crap" moment is something that Tim Schafer himself went to great lengths to tell us that he's been through before many times. Tim also made sure to have 2PP post his inspirational message at the end of the episode to sort of tell us, "hey, I know things look a bit rough in this episode, but we've been through this before, don't worry."

I am 199% sure that Tim Schafer and co. did not intend for this documentary episode to guilt trip a large number of fans into wanting to contribute more money to Reds. I am equally sure that they already have a plan for dealing with the issue; as Tim implied, it probably won't be "just more money," or "just cutting things;" it'll probably be a creative tiered solution involving a bit more money, intelligently cutting a few things from the game, and also working on systems to make the team work a bit more efficiently.

I could go on forever, so to avoid a "tl;dr" situation I'll simply end by summing up with this: I am completely confident that Double Fine will deliver a phenomenal game that goes above and beyond our expectations, even if part of the game does end up on the cutting room floor. I don't think us backers will be directly asked for more money, because I don't think that was ever the intended goal of this latest episode. We're just getting exactly what we were promised: a first-hand look at the making of a Double Fine adventure game, warts and all.

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What I would like to see, and purely from a "I was totally out of the loop when the Kickstarter happened" standpoint, is some extra doodad (or doodads) licensed to Fangamer (or Cafe Press, or anything like that) that let them get some extra cash, and give us losers who missed out on something more than a copy of the game.

Heck, a similar (but *not* the same) Adventure T-Shirt that said "SLACKER" on the back would be awesome. I would buy one of those even if I had the "BACKER" one already. Which I don't, and that makes me sad.

*EDIT* Also, not just a giving me a shirt to buy, but overpriced by enough to be fund-raising and not just "profit from goods". Being a late-backing sort of thing, you can easily expect to get less than the early adopters but still look forward to chip in more.

This is not the previously hinted-at "I'm suddenly worried and want to give more!" panic, but a "I totally missed the chance to contribute properly" message. As far as I'm concerned, they should have already had my money, but my money didn't know it at the time.

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I was thinking about this earlier this morning and I came up with another solution: provide a 'Special Edition' Slacker Backer upgrade/option. Currently the Slacker Backer option available only provides beta access to the game, the game itself (DRM Free and Steam code), download of the documentary and access to the private backer forum. With the 'Special Edition' upgrade, you'll get all of that plus the soundtracks (for both the game and the documentary) as well as a digital version of the artbook. This option will basically mimic the $60 pledge from the Kickstarter campaign. The best part about it is that it will all be digital; there is no cost to produce or ship any products essentially saving Double Fine some cash.

The plan is that for those who have already bought the Slacker Backer package, they're able to upgrade to the 'Special Edition' for an extra $30, including those slacker backers who bought the package at $15. I'm sure Double Fine can add a little extra to the 'Special Edition' in order to give people more of an incentive to purchase it. The idea is to make this new Slacker Backer package more attractive for current and new users and ensure that if they purchase this package, they'll be receiving all these extra goodies that they won't receive if they wait until the game launches on Steam/GoG.

Thoughts?

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A second kickstarter would be nothing but a complete backlash of negativity throughout every gaming publication and every gaming community with this one as a possible exception. You can't raise this much over your initial goal, and then come asking for more.

I would agree with you if the game were held hostage to additional funding.

But that's not what's going on, and I think your viewpoint is incorrect. As I said originally, we have the oportunity to define what it means to be crowd funded right now. A second kickstarter is not a failure, it's a vote.

Originally, Double File said, "we want to make game 'x'." Then along came massive overfunding, and they said, "that's awsome! Instead of making game 'x', we're going to make you game 'y'." Halfway through game 'y' they said, "we're heading toward game 'z', but we know we can't afford it, so we're trimming back to game 'y'."

Now, in the traditional sense, we could say, "we paid for game 'x', and now you are off on game 'z', get your act together!"

But this is not traditional funding. If those giving the money prefer game 'z' over game 'y', why is it wrong to let them pay for it?

This is not a case of holding game 'y' hostage over additional funding. This is a case of letting us choose: would we rather have the less expensive game 'y' and pay nothing more, or the more expensive game 'z' and pay some extra? I'd rather have game 'z'. Judging from the response of many posters, so would many other people.

If you offer a kickstarter and say, "oops, we screwed up, give us more money," then of course there will be backlash. If you offer a kickstarter and say, "we're on course to deliver game 'y', but many of you have seen hints of game 'z' and are interested in seeing that happen -- here's your chance", then I fail to see where the negativity would come from.

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So I think we all agree that a new Kickstarter Campaign would do more bad than good on a marketing perspective. But what about upping our current pledges? That really shouldn't be a big problem. Just give Chris Roberts a call and ask him how he did it with Star Citizen. His campaign was and still is brilliant! Guys like you and him should really work together for this vision of a better world without publishers :-)

And it would be something that you can easily sell without being perceived as a "beggar". At the beginning of your campaign none of us had a clue what to expect. And as you can read here and on the comments at Kickstarter, a lot of people feel that they "owe" you money for what you already delivered!

Hell, you did an awesome job and by far exceeded my expectations that I had in the beginning! The documentary and your forum updates gave me an insight into the game development process that is just mindblowing. I pledged 30$ and what you delivered so far is already more than worth it!

I think especially those on the 15$ and 30$ tier are likely to increase their pledge to the next level. And the first three tiers are just digital rewards. It wouldn't generate any extra work for you (like printing or shipping). So I beg you to open it up to the 60$ tier again. In fact I think it would be unreasonable if you wouldn't! And you can legitimate it by "popular demand".

I know that every project gets to this point sooner or later and that you will be able to cope with it. But it is a matter of fact that your business development guy is looking for more money right now and my suggestion would be one source that is easily accessible.

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cwm9 I know you mean well but I’m not sure you’re fully aware of the symbolic significance of this project.

Crowdfunding from it’s inception to it’s prominence since the success of this project had a lot of naysayers that insist that it doesn’t/wouldn’t work, to this day. Given that we haven’t actually received anything besides t-shirts for the faith we shown to these developers, and we have projects like Code Hero crop up it only adds more credence to their point.

As such I think you underestimate the backlash from people that are not emotionally invested in DF/other companies and are waiting for an opportunity to tell us “we told you so”.

If DF comes out with another Kickstarter, regardless how they spin it, people including a lot of existing backers, we’ll be quick to say that the highly esteemed Tim Schafer couldn’t pull it of and now he’s begging for more money, after getting A LOT more than what he asked when he set out.

Raising the scope of the game is a plausible spin, but not plausible enough and it comes with its own headaches. Besides there’s no guarantee that they realized they couldn’t make game z, as far as I know is game y they couldn’t finish without adjusting budget and manpower.

Deponia (the first part) was a decently looking, decently sized adventure game and it reportedly cost less than half the amount this game has cost so far (only counting the 2 mil+ that actually went into game development), and most recent adventures didn’t cost more than 1mil on average.

Let’s not hide behind our fingers, if they couldn’t make a game within the original allotted time/budget it is mismanagement whether it was a simple waste of resources/manpower or overshooting ambition. Going in the open and admitting that while you’re already in the microscope and people are patiently waiting to see whether you succeed or fail and asking money on top, is begging to be crucified.

And imagine how bigger the backlash would be if the second campaign fails.

Need to remind everyone that the majority of backers are silent, there’s about 200 people or so that post semi-frequently here and maybe 30 that do so more frequently, even the highest voted poll (the DF privacy one) had only 2.6k votes out of 87k+ backers. Fact of the matter is you can’t even get a 10% to show up to vote on anything in the forum, good luck getting a majority (numbers has since been inflated by slacker backers).

I made all those points and used all those words but at the end they are pointless.

I’m going to quote Bob Marley: “Don’t worry, be happy” they already got it sorted out.

There’s no need for a second Kickstarter or for us to start selling our kidneys to give them extra dough, they are legitimate ways to support the company if you so desire, but if there was no other alternative and they needed our direct support in order for the integrity of the game not to be compromised, they would have asked.

I like to think that I gave my money in the hands of intelligent, capable (yet absolutely human) people, and I treat them as such, so should everybody else.

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Everyone is assuming that Double Fine will provide another Kickstarter campaign. I'm providing solutions to completely avoid that. This 'Special Edition' upgrade option I've suggested (along with Schlabschi) is quite possibly the most effective solution to raise funds for this project. Again this is completely optional. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to pledge/donate more to the project. This is an option for those who WANT to and are WILLING to provide extra finances for the project.

Let's do some basic math. There are 47,946 backers at the $15 level and 24,636 at the $30. I'm not sure on the exact numbers of Slacker Backers at the $15 level and Slacker Backers at the $30 so I won't include them in this theoretical situation. If 47,946 backers want to upgrade to the 'Special Edition' for an extra $30 ($45 total instead of $60 total), Double Fine receive a cash influx of $1,438,380. If 24,636 backers want to upgrade to the 'Special Edition' for an extra $15 ($45 total again instead of $60), Double Fine receives $369,540. Combine those two totals and Double Fine receives $1,807,920, more than enough to cover the extra development time and to ensure that no content gets cut.

This of course is a best-case scenario. Not every backer would want to upgrade. Either way, Double Fine gets to increase the amount of money for development ensuring that the minimal amount of content gets cut.

Nothing wrong with that now, is there?

Deponia (the first part) was a decently looking, decently sized adventure game and it reportedly cost less than half the amount this game has cost so far (only counting the 2 mil+ that actually went into game development), and most recent adventures didn’t cost more than 1mil on average.

Deponia uses the Visionaire engine, an engine specifically designed for 2D point-and-click adventure games which only costs $1000 Euros to license. Double Fine are using Moai, a general purpose mobile-based engine and are spending time and resources developing tools to ensure it can do 2D point-and-click adventure games AND are planning to release these tools to the public. To compare the two projects is, in my honest opinion, absolutely stupid on your part. I thought you of all people would have considered that.

I have no beef with you. You seem to be pretty adamant in letting Double Fine do what they want and not listen to any of the backers. I can respect that. What I won't tolerate is the insistence of stopping ANY backer WILLING to provide more financial support to the project. If that's what backers want to do, DO NOT attempt to stop them. That is their choice.

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There’s no need for a second Kickstarter or for us to start selling our kidneys to give them extra dough, they are legitimate ways to support the company if you so desire, but if there was no other alternative and they needed our direct support in order for the integrity of the game not to be compromised, they would have asked.

I think they would obviously love and find a great deal of use for any extra money (it all goes towards the final product), but yes, there are some concerns if they ask for more money, especially given that the initial budget for the kickstarter campaign was so little and the fact that the 'story' of this first kickstarter project is so important.

But I think they could totally introduce some subtle ways of encouraging people to pay more (e.g. that Special Edition idea for slacker backers) or additional swag to purchase without incurring any backlash. It will be interesting to see what comes next.

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What I won't tolerate is the insistence of stopping ANY backer WILLING to provide more financial support to the project. If that's what backers want to do, DO NOT attempt to stop them. That is their choice.

What are you on about? Attempt to stop them? I have as much power to stop people from throwing money at DF as you have to make them throw, which is to say none.

You see this is a forum; the basic idea behind a forum is the exchange of ideas and opinions. I generally try rather than baselessly say “I think this or that” to add arguments to enhance my point or clarify it. If I disagree with someone I make sure they understand the why, if a healthy argument ensues, then maybe by the end of it all parties may come out more aware of their own opinion even if their conviction is unwavering.

Now the problem with gaming forums and this one in particular, is that you get a lot of people who are emotionally invested (irrationally so says I) to the game company said forum belongs to.

Thus the motivation behind a zealot’s argument is emotional not a logical one, which means discussion is futile since their only motive is to defend the object of their affection, no matter the argument or the validity of the point.

That is our lesson for the day!

Now if I’m not replying to any of your (plural) posts you know why.

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Now the problem with gaming forums and this one in particular, is that you get a lot of people who are emotionally invested (irrationally so says I) to the game company said forum belongs to.

But the destruction of Reds is exactly what the Mayan calendar predicted!

:gulp:

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They're not going to do another kickstarter. Even if you disregard the backlash they would suffer from it, it's most likely not even practically possible to incorporate it into this project. It's not going to happen.

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I don't think anyone here wants another kick starter? I'd just like to see something like on star citizens front page that showed a new running total of funds raised including slacker backers, and a way to up our pledges with some info on how upping pledges or being a slacker backer would contribute to the scope of the game (in lieu of rewards, the reward being the game itself).

A 2nd kick starter would be a publicity disaster, agreed. It's just that right now DF has no real way to contribute or continue to support or find DFA directly.

I will be buying the cave

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A 2nd kick starter would be a publicity disaster, agreed. It's just that right now DF has no real way to contribute or continue to support or find DFA directly.

I will be buying the cave

Complitely agree both. We should buy the Cave in crowds :)

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Ya the Cave looks cool! Still Tim, if you get this, this will be my final Plea. Please add an Open "Tip Jar" on the site for the REDS Project & based on the month to month funds accumulated, let us know how the Money will potentially be used on the project. Even if it only means, another week of code tweaking or smoother animations. Do this for as long as you deem practical for the Project, I'm sure everyone will like this as a little bonus to extend their support if they wish to do so. I like buying swag just as much as the next guy/gal, but in this case, half that cash goes back into the manufacturing & it's still no guarantee that the money you do receive will go to the Kickstarter game itself.

Much love to everyone at Double Fine, a fan, : )

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Nah, I don't think there's much on the store that interests mHOLY CRAP THERE ARE LITTLE CAVE FIGURINES!!!!! SO COOL!!!

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So far it looks like there have only been two double fine posts, but no solution on how we could give REDS specifically more money. We could buy things, which would give money to double fine and is good and all, but it doesn't guarantee that the money goes to REDS. I'd like to help to make sure that REDS is given the time and money it needs to be the best possible game it can be. Could you kind folks at double fine set something up so we can help out further? It seems that negotiations for time and money are a normal part of game development, and now that the idea and scope of the game are much more solid than when the kickstarter happened, it makes sense that more time and money are necessary. How about letting those who'd like to help help?

Also, how much of the slacker backer money was included in the $ estimate in ep. 7? Would you mind sharing how much money the slacker backer effort has raised so far and what that's gone towards? Would buying a few more slacker backer packages help REDS?

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I think people are over-worrying. I think some editing and scaling down is just a part of game development, and in some cases it even makes games stronger in the same way editing movies for time does. I don't feel any need to donate further, I'm happy with my pledge and confident that Reds will come out great.

But I will be buying The Cave.

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So far it looks like there have only been two double fine posts, but no solution on how we could give REDS specifically more money. We could buy things, which would give money to double fine and is good and all, but it doesn't guarantee that the money goes to REDS. I'd like to help to make sure that REDS is given the time and money it needs to be the best possible game it can be. Could you kind folks at double fine set something up so we can help out further? It seems that negotiations for time and money are a normal part of game development, and now that the idea and scope of the game are much more solid than when the kickstarter happened, it makes sense that more time and money are necessary. How about letting those who'd like to help help?

Also, how much of the slacker backer money was included in the $ estimate in ep. 7? Would you mind sharing how much money the slacker backer effort has raised so far and what that's gone towards? Would buying a few more slacker backer packages help REDS?

So far, if you want to help REDS, you can purchase Double Fine games from Steam, iOS App Store, PSN and X-Box Marketplace. "The Cave" is due soon, so that can be another purchase. After that, you can purchase some stuff from their store. And if you're still not satisfied, you can purchase a few "Slacker Backers" for some people that you know as gifts.

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So far it looks like there have only been two double fine posts, but no solution on how we could give REDS specifically more money. We could buy things, which would give money to double fine and is good and all, but it doesn't guarantee that the money goes to REDS. I'd like to help to make sure that REDS is given the time and money it needs to be the best possible game it can be. Could you kind folks at double fine set something up so we can help out further? It seems that negotiations for time and money are a normal part of game development, and now that the idea and scope of the game are much more solid than when the kickstarter happened, it makes sense that more time and money are necessary. How about letting those who'd like to help help?

Also, how much of the slacker backer money was included in the $ estimate in ep. 7? Would you mind sharing how much money the slacker backer effort has raised so far and what that's gone towards? Would buying a few more slacker backer packages help REDS?

So far, if you want to help REDS, you can purchase Double Fine games from Steam, iOS App Store, PSN and X-Box Marketplace. "The Cave" is due soon, so that can be another purchase. After that, you can purchase some stuff from their store. And if you're still not satisfied, you can purchase a few "Slacker Backers" for some people that you know as gifts.

Finally someone who gets it.....people they filmed that MONTHS ago, have faith that they know what they're doing

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Keep your eyes peeled in the 'Double Fine Kickstarter Adventure (Public Forum)' in a few hours (maybe). I'd like to think of this as Phase 1 of the fund raising effort for REDS.

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Keep your eyes peeled in the 'Double Fine Kickstarter Adventure (Public Forum)' in a few hours (maybe). I'd like to think of this as Phase 1 of the fund raising effort for REDS.

Phase 1? Umm...did you miss the kickstarter?

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