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KestrelPi

Massive Chalice and same sex couples

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when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic.

oh man this exact thing happened to me with jack from the second game. i was just trying to be nice to her because she's all messed up in the head and then BAM there's now awkward sexual tension between mr. shepard and this child in a woman's body. then i shut it down and all she'll say to me forevermore is "fuck you." :/

But in all fairness 1. You were given the option to reject her and 2. Her reaction to that rejection was in character.

That said I've had moments in games where a dialogue choice seemed to be going in one way and instead went another. This is particularly bad in Mass Effect where everything is kept vague and you don't know the full content of the message. But that's just bad design.

As I recall, the way it worked was you could say something seemingly innocuous or you could say something cold and professional to her. If you say the thing that is cold to her, she accepts it and doesn't hate you. If you say the nice thing, then you get pushed to another decision point where you can either initiate the romance or be a total dick and make her hate you.

So you're actually given two opportunities to reject her, but that's not clear until you're already in a situation where your rejection will be more hurtful. That's pretty dumb in my opinion.

This is true, I remember the EXACT moment you're talking about, but it wasn't a gay/straight issue, rather a problem with the dialogue tree. For example, when I encountered this dialogue, I was playing a guy, and exactly the same thing happened - I said something that I didn't think would lead to an advance, but when it did, and I rejected it, she hated me. That was dumb, but yeah, a problem with the tree itself.

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Mugen, please stop talking about "how straight people think". You keep saying saying things that I, as a straight male, have never thought. It might be how you think, but don't assume that everyone else automatically feels the same way because they're also straight.

I'm only on page 4 of this thread so far, but I'm just going to cut in and agree with this. I'll admit I was a bit taken aback when I first saw men holding hands or kissing when I was about 10, but that was 20 years ago and it was because I'd never been exposed to that before. I'm very happy to live in a society where people generally are allowed to be who they are without having to worry that they might be offending others. I'm straight but I have no problem watching displays of affection between people of the same gender. Of course I wouldn't watch gay porn, but that's really besides the point, as porn is something you'd seek out voluntarily for the purpose of arousing yourself and generally it's not the business of random people on the street to do that for you. In my opinion the more exposure to people of different sexual orientations and ethnic background we get, the better it's going to be for everyone as a whole. There's just way too much shit happening in the world that stems from people hating on others because they're different in ways they can't themselves come to terms with.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired. It would have been cool if he and cortez were hitting it off. I just didn't want it directed towards me without prior knowledge that that kinda thing could happen, and preferably, an option to avoid it ever coming up for my character. Then he can go be with cortez or james or something like garrus did with tali.

Why can't I claim people for straight in games that affect me that have nothing to do with the narrative? Why can't it be my choice? Plus it had been established in the first one that he is/was straight because his only option is female Shepard, but that aside, and I'm willing to say there are extenuating circumstances, etc, etc

Bottom line for me, I should be able to choose whether I want my character to experience gay romance options and gay people should have the option to. People experience immersion differently, there could be gay people who have their experience diminished because of straight interference. I'm not saying there is but it's certainly possible. They should be able to play the game how they want to as well.

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I'm only on page 4 of this thread so far, but I'm just going to cut in and agree with this. I'll admit I was a bit taken aback when I first saw men holding hands or kissing when I was about 10, but that was 20 years ago and it was because I'd never been exposed to that before. I'm very happy to live in a society where people generally are allowed to be who they are without having to worry that they might be offending others. I'm straight but I have no problem watching displays of affection between people of the same gender. Of course I wouldn't watch gay porn, but that's really besides the point, as porn is something you'd seek out voluntarily for the purpose of arousing yourself and generally it's not the business of random people on the street to do that for you. In my opinion the more exposure to people of different sexual orientations and ethnic background we get, the better it's going to be for everyone as a whole. There's just way too much shit happening in the world that stems from people hating on others because they're different in ways they can't themselves come to terms with.

:) Awesome. As I said somewhere else, the real tragedy is that I was taken aback, too, when I was young. Seriously, I remember the moment I learnt what gay sex was and I was kinda amazed people did that, and kinda weirded out. And I have these memories of watching comedy shows late night on TV with my dad, and there'd be an advert for a gay channel and my Dad would be visibly repulsed, and I'd feel uncomfortable too - but I was also at the age where it was starting to become interesting to me, too. Talk about conflicted.

I want to see a world where exposure to different cultures, identities and orientations is so matter-of-fact that there's no reason for anyone to have those feelings of repulsion, no matter where they stand. And if getting even halfway there means some people occasionally are made uncomfortable, I think that's worth it.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU or anyone else should need a warning either. That's the whole point. It shouldn't be something that feels jarring. It isn't for me in the opposite scenario, it isn't for plenty of straight people in your situation, why is it for YOU? If the answer is 'well, it's just how I feel and you should respect that,' won't you consider that that maybe it's your job to come to terms with your own unnecessary discomfort, not everyone else's job to step around it? Until you realise that that's what I'm questioning, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU should need a warning either. That's the whole point. Until you understand that, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

YOU don't, but others may.

But anyway, we pretty much see eye to eye on everything so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this last point.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU should need a warning either. That's the whole point. Until you understand that, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

YOU don't, but others may.

But anyway, we pretty much see eye to eye on everything so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this last point.

I knew you'd say that, so I expanded on my reply a bit, this is it:

It shouldn’t be something that feels jarring. It isn’t for me in the opposite scenario, it isn’t for plenty of straight people in your situation, why is it for YOU? If the answer is ‘well, it’s just how I feel and you should respect that,’ won’t you consider that that maybe it’s your job to come to terms with your own unnecessary discomfort, not everyone else’s job to step around it?

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Super interesting discussion! One of the points that always comes up when discussing getting more diversity in video games is that games with female or non-straight male leads don't sell well, so it would be awesome to see Massive Chalice break that stereotype as a crowdfunded game.

A few thoughts:

1. Despite the emphasis on bloodlines, the focus of the game isn't (or shouldn't be) on sex. Bloodlines are cool because you can trace associations between groups of people. Mythic bloodlines are cool because they evoke ancient powers and mix that with a remembrance of past relatives. There's very little sentimentality in the idea of a mythic bloodline (unless it's a bloodline of mythic lovers, like the Tristan & Isolde / Romeo & Juliet bloodline -- although that would be a tragically short-lived bloodline). The point I'm making is that I don't know how much room there is for romantic relationships of any orientation in this framework; however, if the game mechanic was solely based on breeding and eugenics, that would also be sterile and slightly evil.

2. I'd prefer not to be asked about the sexual orientation of my characters. For me, that would be more immersion-breaking then simply having all options available later and being able to select whichever I preferred.

3. One reason I'd be cautious in the handling of same-sex couples is that the most "inclusive" approach tends to make everyone de-facto bisexual, which I think is lazy and unsatisfying. I think it's important that same-sex couples should be fairly represented, but if half the characters always end up in medieval same-sex relationships that would be an over-representation (and it would strike me as blatant pandering). Without any gender constraints, I think this is exactly what would end up happening, since I would create same-sex couples whenever they granted a gameplay advantage. I don't want the sexual orientation of characters to be in a state of quantum indeterminacy that always resolves favourably for me.

4. I think there should be some sort of rejection mechanic or relationship satisfaction attribute (with a cooler name, but I'll leave that for Brad). This could again be a mixture of nature and nurture and orientation would just be one component of it. I imagine it could work with something like the Kinsey scale, so most characters have an orientation preference, but in most cases that's not an absolute preference and could be expressed differently depending on what sort of society you have.

5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the "blood purity" theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it'd be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

6. Not really a point, but here's some interesting scenarios to consider when discussing the relationship mechanic and what it might support: arranged marriages in which neither party is happy but still produce offspring, romantic couplings that aren't fertile, a society full of repressed heterosexuals in same-sex relationships, happy straight couples with children, happy gay couples with children, legacies and dynasties that are not genetic.

7. When all is said in done, the game has combat at its core. It's not a multi-generational date simulator, but a 200 year war. Yet there are lots of other strategy war games and very few games (or stories of any nature) that span eight generations. I really want this game to convey the feeling of playing through many generations of people and not many waves of equipment upgrades. Getting personal quirks and generational culture is a huge part of that.

Man, this could be really cool.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU should need a warning either. That's the whole point. Until you understand that, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

YOU don't, but others may.

But anyway, we pretty much see eye to eye on everything so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this last point.

I knew you'd say that, so I expanded on my reply a bit, this is it:

It shouldn’t be something that feels jarring. It isn’t for me in the opposite scenario, it isn’t for plenty of straight people in your situation, why is it for YOU? If the answer is ‘well, it’s just how I feel and you should respect that,’ won’t you consider that that maybe it’s your job to come to terms with your own unnecessary discomfort, not everyone else’s job to step around it?

So I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance in my personal life I can't just be happy that others are happy in that place? This is ridiculous. How do you expect me to just enjoy it? This is beyond my comprehension. I don't enjoy red wine so I should be forced to have it in and around me because other people like it? Why can't they just enjoy it and leave me alone? Why can't I just be satisfied with their happiness and enjoyment and enjoy my game in the way I would like? The fact that you think I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance or else i'm a bad person is stupid. I don't like it directed at me, it's irritating, fine, no one loses, no one gets hurt, everyone gets to do and be everything they wanted to do and be. No skin off anyone's back. You still get to appreciate the game in all its gay glory.

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU should need a warning either. That's the whole point. Until you understand that, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

YOU don't, but others may.

But anyway, we pretty much see eye to eye on everything so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this last point.

I knew you'd say that, so I expanded on my reply a bit, this is it:

It shouldn’t be something that feels jarring. It isn’t for me in the opposite scenario, it isn’t for plenty of straight people in your situation, why is it for YOU? If the answer is ‘well, it’s just how I feel and you should respect that,’ won’t you consider that that maybe it’s your job to come to terms with your own unnecessary discomfort, not everyone else’s job to step around it?

So I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance in my personal life I can't just be happy that others are happy in that place? This is ridiculous. How do you expect me to just enjoy it? This is beyond my comprehension. I don't enjoy red wine so I should be forced to have it in and around me because other people like it? Why can't they just enjoy it and leave me alone? Why can't I just be satisfied with their happiness and enjoyment and enjoy my game in the way I would like? The fact that you think I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance or else i'm a bad person is stupid. I don't like it directed at me, it's irritating, fine, no one loses, no one gets hurt, everyone gets to do and be everything they wanted to do and be. No skin off anyone's back. You still get to appreciate the game in all its gay glory.

What? No that's not what I'm saying at all. You can not be into something and still not let it make you UNCOMFORTABLE or IRRITATED (which are both words you've used). I'm not saying, and never said you have to be totally into gay romance. But it doesn't have to make you feel the way you feel when you encounter it unexpectedly. As someone who supports gay rights, you should realise that those feelings are just side effects of the way society has brought you up. You can get over them, and why wouldn't you want to? They're not desirable feelings to have, are they? My parents got over it. My grandmother did. My friends did. Wouldn't you, as a non-homophobe prefer it that if you encountered someone surprise-gay-coming-onto-you in a game, you just shrugged and got on with it (i.e. shrugged and let them down gently)? I'm not saying you have to enjoy the come on. But 'ehhhhhh' isn't the reaction of someone who is emotionally mature about it.

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Hey guys (SurplusGamer and Mugen), I hate to interrupt, but I'd really appreciate both your thoughts on my post above.

Somebody acknowledge meeee

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Hey guys (SurplusGamer and Mugen), I hate to interrupt, but I'd really appreciate both your thoughts on my post above.

Somebody acknowledge meeee

Hey, I'm gonna get into 'em, they look super interesting but I am still forming thoughts. Stay tuned! This is what I'd like this thread to be about :)

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jfc mugen no one said you have to LIKE gay romance, but if you're as accepting as you say you are, it's your job to not have an issue with it.

Your red wine analogy is stupid. "Ugh I don't like red wine, please no one else bring red wine okay!" You can be around other people who like red wine without consuming it yourself. No one's forcing you to have the wine, it's just there. The bar is fully stocked, and that one drink you love is still there, but some people asked for red wine and they obliged and you're making a big deal out of it

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4. I think there should be some sort of rejection mechanic or relationship satisfaction attribute (with a cooler name, but I'll leave that for Brad). This could again be a mixture of nature and nurture and orientation would just be one component of it. I imagine it could work with something like the Kinsey scale, so most characters have an orientation preference, but in most cases that's not an absolute preference and could be expressed differently depending on what sort of society you have.

This is a very interesting thought. If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that you don't control the sexual orientation of your heroes yourself, but they have a random orientation that might be anywhere on a scale from 100% gay to 100% straight and depending on orientation you might have more or less luck trying to set up your hero with another man/woman? And possibly that if anything you get to choose how accepting your society is of different kinds of relationship, even though you don't have a direct influence over which hero prefers which mates. I think this sounds like a pretty good real life approximation and it could be interesting to see this mechanic in a game.

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For my part, I'm gonna have as many Amazonian lesbians as possible in my game.

Ha! I love it. I have to admit, that exact thought had crossed my mind as well. I'm glad you said it first!

Hey guys (SurplusGamer and Mugen), I hate to interrupt, but I'd really appreciate both your thoughts on my post above.

Somebody acknowledge meeee

Hey, I'm gonna get into 'em, they look super interesting but I am still forming thoughts. Stay tuned! This is what I'd like this thread to be about :)

:D

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I had said earlier I have no problem playing a game where the main character had been determined to be gay from the beginning and I'd known what I was getting into from the beginning. But when I want to play as straight, I want just that experience, same as gay, or at least a solid option for that experience. When I had first played mass effect 3 I didn't want anything to be spoiled so I didn't read up on it at all... and it was just my luck I had saved kaiden and he started in with the questions and I'm like... ehhhhhhhhh? I dislike that kind of a surprise half way through a game.

And you should have had gay options, that was a terrible over sight. You're right if it was as simple as that, the problem is, the people who write the games are mediocre story writers compared to authors, and when an intelligent person is just going through the dialogue choices thinking "Oh this would be a good thing to say to this character after he had been through that" then BAM I'm in the gay route just cause I was caring or sympathetic. It's stupid. The nice thing about Cortez is it wasn't a surprise, it was established early so one could discern where to dance around the touchie areas to some extent. But even still, I would have much preferred not having to negotiate the situation at all had there been an option at the start of the game to avoid it.

Uh, I don't get why the game has to 'warn' you that a character might be gay. I don't expect a game to warn me that characters are straight. They are or they aren't. Whatever. They don't need to tell me up front. Because who cares, right? I know you agree with that much. What I'm wondering, is are you SATISFIED that you were 'like... ehhhhhhhhh?' Wouldn't you rather your reaction was, 'Oh, I guess Kaiden's gay, then. I didn't realise that. I'll let him down and move on.' Isn't that the appropriate reaction in that scenario? Rather than 'ehhhhhhhhh?'

What was so surprising about Kaiden having feelings for your character? The fact you'd known him for 3 games and it hadn't been revealed until that point? Well - so what? This gets right back to the very first point I was talking to you about - you don't get to 'claim' everyone as straight until proven otherwise. That's not how it works. I think that's your problem, not the game's. It doesn't make you a homophobe - but it does mean you probably have a bit of unnecessary discomfort about gay people that if I were you I'd want to rid myself of.

There should be the option to warn you for straight if you so desired.

But I DON'T desire that. And I WOULDN'T desire that. I don't think that's something that ought to even cross my mind, just as I don't think YOU should need a warning either. That's the whole point. Until you understand that, then we're just going to be talking cross-purposes.

YOU don't, but others may.

But anyway, we pretty much see eye to eye on everything so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this last point.

I knew you'd say that, so I expanded on my reply a bit, this is it:

It shouldn’t be something that feels jarring. It isn’t for me in the opposite scenario, it isn’t for plenty of straight people in your situation, why is it for YOU? If the answer is ‘well, it’s just how I feel and you should respect that,’ won’t you consider that that maybe it’s your job to come to terms with your own unnecessary discomfort, not everyone else’s job to step around it?

So I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance in my personal life I can't just be happy that others are happy in that place? This is ridiculous. How do you expect me to just enjoy it? This is beyond my comprehension. I don't enjoy red wine so I should be forced to have it in and around me because other people like it? Why can't they just enjoy it and leave me alone? Why can't I just be satisfied with their happiness and enjoyment and enjoy my game in the way I would like? The fact that you think I HAVE TO appreciate gay romance or else i'm a bad person is stupid. I don't like it directed at me, it's irritating, fine, no one loses, no one gets hurt, everyone gets to do and be everything they wanted to do and be. No skin off anyone's back. You still get to appreciate the game in all its gay glory.

What? No that's not what I'm saying at all. You can not be into something and still not let it make you UNCOMFORTABLE or IRRITATED (which are both words you've used). I'm not saying, and never said you have to be totally into gay romance. But it doesn't have to make you feel the way you feel when you encounter it unexpectedly. As someone who supports gay rights, you should realise that those feelings are just side effects of the way society has brought you up. You can get over them, and why wouldn't you want to? They're not desirable feelings to have, are they? My parents got over it. My grandmother did. My friends did. Wouldn't you, as a non-homophobe prefer it that if you encountered someone surprise-gay-coming-onto-you in a game, you just shrugged and got on with it? I'm not saying you have to enjoy it. But 'ehhhhhh' isn't the reaction of someone who is emotionally mature about it.

So what if I'm uncomfortable or irritated? It doesn't affect you, I still march in your parades, and vote against any legislation that would seek to violate your rights and freedoms. Not everyone is going to feel everything the same way, there will always be people who think differently or feel differently, all that matters is that you're treated well. Hell that's more than anyone can ask to get from the sick societies we live in.

And as I've said many times now, I have no problem with infinite numbers of gay characters in games doing all the gay stuff they want. Your grandmother accepts and is fine with you being gay presumably, but she doesn't have to appreciate every aspect of your physical and dating life. She can just love you as a person. Your adding your own assumption of what I meant by 'ehhhhh' all it meant was, confusion, like... why is this happening all of a sudden?

Anyway. I don't see what continued discussion on this could gain us, we're already starting to repeat ourselves.

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I will definitely throw alot more money at this game if they give me the choice to play as a powerful Amazonian lesbian faction

Edit: Gogdammit mugen WHY are you so hung up on the intimate parts of gay relationships? I really doubt we're going to see ANY of the inner workings of a relationship, because, y'know, thats not what the game is about

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Super interesting discussion! One of the points that always comes up when discussing getting more diversity in video games is that games with female or non-straight male leads don't sell well, so it would be awesome to see Massive Chalice break that stereotype as a crowdfunded game.

A few thoughts:

1. Despite the emphasis on bloodlines, the focus of the game isn't (or shouldn't be) on sex. Bloodlines are cool because you can trace associations between groups of people. Mythic bloodlines are cool because they evoke ancient powers and mix that with a remembrance of past relatives. There's very little sentimentality in the idea of a mythic bloodline (unless it's a bloodline of mythic lovers, like the Tristan & Isolde / Romeo & Juliet bloodline -- although that would be a tragically short-lived bloodline). The point I'm making is that I don't know how much room there is for romantic relationships of any orientation in this framework; however, if the game mechanic was solely based on breeding and eugenics, that would also be sterile and slightly evil.

2. I'd prefer not to be asked about the sexual orientation of my characters. For me, that would be more immersion-breaking then simply having all options available later and being able to select whichever I preferred.

3. One reason I'd be cautious in the handling of same-sex couples is that the most "inclusive" approach tends to make everyone de-facto bisexual, which I think is lazy and unsatisfying. I think it's important that same-sex couples should be fairly represented, but if half the characters always end up in medieval same-sex relationships that would be an over-representation (and it would strike me as blatant pandering). Without any gender constraints, I think this is exactly what would end up happening, since I would create same-sex couples whenever they granted a gameplay advantage. I don't want the sexual orientation of characters to be in a state of quantum indeterminacy that always resolves favourably for me.

4. I think there should be some sort of rejection mechanic or relationship satisfaction attribute (with a cooler name, but I'll leave that for Brad). This could again be a mixture of nature and nurture and orientation would just be one component of it. I imagine it could work with something like the Kinsey scale, so most characters have an orientation preference, but in most cases that's not an absolute preference and could be expressed differently depending on what sort of society you have.

5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the "blood purity" theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it'd be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

6. Not really a point, but here's some interesting scenarios to consider when discussing the relationship mechanic and what it might support: arranged marriages in which neither party is happy but still produce offspring, romantic couplings that aren't fertile, a society full of repressed heterosexuals in same-sex relationships, happy straight couples with children, happy gay couples with children, legacies and dynasties that are not genetic.

7. When all is said in done, the game has combat at its core. It's not a multi-generational date simulator, but a 200 year war. Yet there are lots of other strategy war games and very few games (or stories of any nature) that span eight generations. I really want this game to convey the feeling of playing through many generations of people and not many waves of equipment upgrades. Getting personal quirks and generational culture is a huge part of that.

Man, this could be really cool.

I think all are good points. Two things in particular.

1. I think a Kinsey Scale would be interesting, perhaps a bit complex but, especially of there's a way to measure compatibility between two Warriors, it could lead to some interesting social management.

2. 5 and 6 are the kinds of details that fascinate me. I brought up the option of not including gay Warriors in any ongoing bloodlines and using them exclusively for combat as an option earlier. It's a terrible practice IRL and anyone who does it because of their feelings about homosexuals IRL is probably a terrible person. But for my part, as a person who fully supports the lifestyle and has brushed closer and closer to it over the years it's something I'd still do just as an experiment. That kind of play is interesting to me, it may be ugly, but it makes the gears turn in my head.

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If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that you don't control the sexual orientation of your heroes yourself, but they have a random orientation that might be anywhere on a scale from 100% gay to 100% straight and depending on orientation you might have more or less luck trying to set up your hero with another man/woman? And possibly that if anything you get to choose how accepting your society is of different kinds of relationship, even though you don't have a direct influence over which hero prefers which mates. I think this sounds like a pretty good real life approximation and it could be interesting to see this mechanic in a game.

Yeah, that's it, pretty much. If you want to only play with straight or gay pairings, you can select out heroes that are into that (or try to force it with possibly detrimental effects). If that means that you can't use your favourite hero because they're straight/gay, well... they were spawned that way.

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So majugi you dropped a few thought bombs here and I'm still thinking about them, I think I'll just take them one at a time.

Super interesting discussion! One of the points that always comes up when discussing getting more diversity in video games is that games with female or non-straight male leads don't sell well, so it would be awesome to see Massive Chalice break that stereotype as a crowdfunded game.

A few thoughts:

1. Despite the emphasis on bloodlines, the focus of the game isn't (or shouldn't be) on sex. Bloodlines are cool because you can trace associations between groups of people. Mythic bloodlines are cool because they evoke ancient powers and mix that with a remembrance of past relatives. There's very little sentimentality in the idea of a mythic bloodline (unless it's a bloodline of mythic lovers, like the Tristan & Isolde / Romeo & Juliet bloodline -- although that would be a tragically short-lived bloodline). The point I'm making is that I don't know how much room there is for romantic relationships of any orientation in this framework; however, if the game mechanic was solely based on breeding and eugenics, that would also be sterile and slightly evil.

I agree, and it's that thought that made me come up with my original suggestion, which is that maybe bloodlines aren't the only meaningful output from a relationship, and that there could be some more things which are totally sex-neutral, like research bonuses and special discoveries. It looks like this has opened up a discussion about what else there could be which is COOL and AWESOME :D

2. I'd prefer not to be asked about the sexual orientation of my characters. For me, that would be more immersion-breaking then simply having all options available later and being able to select whichever I preferred.

I agree with that. Also, it would be kind unnecessarily micro-managey.

3. One reason I'd be cautious in the handling of same-sex couples is that the most "inclusive" approach tends to make everyone de-facto bisexual, which I think is lazy and unsatisfying. I think it's important that same-sex couples should be fairly represented, but if half the characters always end up in medieval same-sex relationships that would be an over-representation (and it would strike me as blatant pandering). Without any gender constraints, I think this is exactly what would end up happening, since I would create same-sex couples whenever they granted a gameplay advantage. I don't want the sexual orientation of characters to be in a state of quantum indeterminacy that always resolves favourably for me.

Mm, I see your point, but I think this approach has its heart in the right place. And actually I rather like matching people as couples for strategic, gameplay reasons. It sort of goes nicely with the feudal, arranged-marriages aspect of the game. And besides, this is a totally unique fantasy world with some feudal-inspired elements, so its free to make its own rules about what level representation is appropriate. To me it doesn't actually feel like pandering - quite the contrary, because the system is completely agnostic with regard to sexuality. Pandering, to me, would be if they made a system where for some reason gay couples got special bonuses.

4. I think there should be some sort of rejection mechanic or relationship satisfaction attribute (with a cooler name, but I'll leave that for Brad). This could again be a mixture of nature and nurture and orientation would just be one component of it. I imagine it could work with something like the Kinsey scale, so most characters have an orientation preference, but in most cases that's not an absolute preference and could be expressed differently depending on what sort of society you have.

As Chris Remo pointed out, it's not a relationship simulator, so I'm not sure how far down that rabbit hole they want to go. It might lessen the strategic power the player has if the game mechanics are regularly stopping the player from making the cool pairings they want to make. So I'm a little wary of this, at least until I know more about why the player would make various choices and what impact that has.

5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the "blood purity" theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it'd be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

There's been some cool nature/nurture discussions happening in various threads including this one, and it's something the team is definitely looking at how it will be handled in the gameplay, so I think you're covered there.

6. Not really a point, but here's some interesting scenarios to consider when discussing the relationship mechanic and what it might support: arranged marriages in which neither party is happy but still produce offspring, romantic couplings that aren't fertile, a society full of repressed heterosexuals in same-sex relationships, happy straight couples with children, happy gay couples with children, legacies and dynasties that are not genetic.

Again, these sound interesting, but it really depends how deep they want to get with the relationship stuff, and how that will relate to the overall strategy. If they can include these things in a way that makes the decision making in the game richer and give the player more strategic power, I say they should consider it!

7. When all is said in done, the game has combat at its core. It's not a multi-generational date simulator, but a 200 year war. Yet there are lots of other strategy war games and very few games (or stories of any nature) that span eight generations. I really want this game to convey the feeling of playing through many generations of people and not many waves of equipment upgrades. Getting personal quirks and generational culture is a huge part of that.

Man, this could be really cool.

I definitely think that fostering a real sense of attachment to the people is one of their key goals with this project, I've seen them talking about it in a lot of threads, so it sounds like you'll get your wish :)

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5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the “blood purity” theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it’d be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

In terms of our biology a genetic view of inheritance is a factual one, with a bit of epigenetics, it doesn't lead to genocide and racism. Eugenics is only bad when forced upon people, many countries now have genetic screening advised for every couple and certain smaller communities who married their first cousins for centuries now really have to check if they're gene carriers (asymptomatic) of certain diseases before they even enter a relationship because it's so prevalent. With a genetic view "blood purity" doesn't make any sense, and is a pre-genetic view.

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5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the “blood purity” theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it’d be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

In terms of our biology a genetic view of inheritance is a factual one, with a bit of epigenetics, it doesn't lead to genocide and racism. Eugenics is only bad when forced upon people, many countries now have genetic screening advised for every couple and certain smaller communities who married their first cousins for centuries now really have to check if they're gene carriers (asymptomatic) of certain diseases before they even enter a relationship because it's so prevalent. With a genetic view "blood purity" doesn't make any sense, and is a pre-genetic view.

I think he was just saying that if the game is only about fostering bloodlines, that has a few nasty historical parallels that are probably best... avoided. I think I agree, which is why I'm excited that the developers are talking about lots of different things that can factor into upbringing now, rather than simply bloodline.

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Super interesting discussion! One of the points that always comes up when discussing getting more diversity in video games is that games with female or non-straight male leads don't sell well, so it would be awesome to see Massive Chalice break that stereotype as a crowdfunded game.

A few thoughts:

1. Despite the emphasis on bloodlines, the focus of the game isn't (or shouldn't be) on sex. Bloodlines are cool because you can trace associations between groups of people. Mythic bloodlines are cool because they evoke ancient powers and mix that with a remembrance of past relatives. There's very little sentimentality in the idea of a mythic bloodline (unless it's a bloodline of mythic lovers, like the Tristan & Isolde / Romeo & Juliet bloodline -- although that would be a tragically short-lived bloodline). The point I'm making is that I don't know how much room there is for romantic relationships of any orientation in this framework; however, if the game mechanic was solely based on breeding and eugenics, that would also be sterile and slightly evil.

2. I'd prefer not to be asked about the sexual orientation of my characters. For me, that would be more immersion-breaking then simply having all options available later and being able to select whichever I preferred.

3. One reason I'd be cautious in the handling of same-sex couples is that the most "inclusive" approach tends to make everyone de-facto bisexual, which I think is lazy and unsatisfying. I think it's important that same-sex couples should be fairly represented, but if half the characters always end up in medieval same-sex relationships that would be an over-representation (and it would strike me as blatant pandering). Without any gender constraints, I think this is exactly what would end up happening, since I would create same-sex couples whenever they granted a gameplay advantage. I don't want the sexual orientation of characters to be in a state of quantum indeterminacy that always resolves favourably for me.

4. I think there should be some sort of rejection mechanic or relationship satisfaction attribute (with a cooler name, but I'll leave that for Brad). This could again be a mixture of nature and nurture and orientation would just be one component of it. I imagine it could work with something like the Kinsey scale, so most characters have an orientation preference, but in most cases that's not an absolute preference and could be expressed differently depending on what sort of society you have.

5. A strictly genetic view of inheritance and legacy leads to a lot of nasty conclusions (see: eugenics, genocide, racism, inbreeding, the "blood purity" theme in Harry Potter, etc). I think it'd be neat to have the option to play as a crazed blood purity obsessed king (because how many other games let you do that?) but it had better not be the only viable strategy.

6. Not really a point, but here's some interesting scenarios to consider when discussing the relationship mechanic and what it might support: arranged marriages in which neither party is happy but still produce offspring, romantic couplings that aren't fertile, a society full of repressed heterosexuals in same-sex relationships, happy straight couples with children, happy gay couples with children, legacies and dynasties that are not genetic.

7. When all is said in done, the game has combat at its core. It's not a multi-generational date simulator, but a 200 year war. Yet there are lots of other strategy war games and very few games (or stories of any nature) that span eight generations. I really want this game to convey the feeling of playing through many generations of people and not many waves of equipment upgrades. Getting personal quirks and generational culture is a huge part of that.

Man, this could be really cool.

1) You're kinda just supposing and guessing and making things up. Which is fine. But there's little I can say about it other than good imagination.

2) Which is why it would be buried deep in the options menu where only the people who want to use it can.

3) Good points well made.

4) This conflicts with your #3 and undermines the nature of gays suggesting it's their choice and not their inherited desire from birth(or whatever they want to call it) to some extent.

5) Both true and untrue, if done properly it could produce tremendous result like the ashkenazi jews did somewhat unintentionally, and because it was unintentional they ended up with some terrible problems. But genetic diversity is also incredibly important. High quality parents tend to breed high quality children.

6) To have an entire society be repressed sexually as a mechanic would be a demerit for something like under fed or entertained. Romantic couples that are infertile are trouble if they are in large quantities for the sake of your army and society, otherwise a non issue. Happy gay couples with children makes a great deal of sense as parents would often die in wars. Legacies and Dynasties that aren't genetic are your enemies.

7) Yes?

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@SurplusGamer: good points. It sounds like it comes down to how much attention is put into the coupling part of the game at all. If it's just a click-and-match system, a lot of this discussion seems moot, but I agree that there are merits to that. If we don't care to model relationships, it would come down to who are the biological parents and who is raising the child. The parents then would be male+female pairs and child mentoring could be entirely separate from parenthood. Is that what you were going for? It seems pretty non-controversial.

@AwesomeOcelot: that's a fair point to an extent. Biological inheritance is strictly biological, but surely familial/cultural expertise can be inherited as well? Think of tradesmen and guilds. I'd also point out that this is a fantasy setting that explicitly has bloodline powers**, so the scientific view of inheritance may not directly apply. [EDIT: **Maybe. That's partly speculation.]

@Mugen: Burying an orientation switch deep within an options menu is an even worse solution. What's the default setting? If it matches my own, that's great for me, but if it didn't then not only do I have to set a ridiculous setting, but I have to go hunting for it as well. You seem to be suggesting that straight and gay people cannot possibly enjoy the same game, which I think is untrue. I also don't see how my point 4 conflicted with point 3. I'm not suggesting that orientation is a choice, but that behaviour based on orientation is a choice and that orientation is not always binary. Yes, this is a more nuanced depiction of sexual orientation then we're likely to get (and possibly more elaborate then appropriate for this context), but it's not unrealistic. I'm also not arguing about what should happen in real life, but giving some ideas for what I'd think would make a fun game.

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This thread has become a big tl;dr for someone coming in as late as I am so I don't know if someone has already made this point but I think having gay couples in the game gives sex and relationships to much emphasis in the game. This isn't the Sims (at least I hope it isn't) and isn't about making a happy family. It's about humans creating epic bloodlines. I think sex and relationships will be (and should be) left out of the game as much as possible. Unless gay couples can enhance the game mechanics why do we need them? To be honest, if there were some way to remove straight couples from the game I think that would be for the best but the truth of the matter it is pretty much a necessity. At least I can't think of a way around it. I would prefer it if any and all forms of sex, love and relationships were kept out of the game as much as possible. Let's just keep it about war tactics. That's just my thoughts.

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@SurplusGamer: good points. It sounds like it comes down to how much attention is put into the coupling part of the game at all. If it's just a click-and-match system, a lot of this discussion seems moot, but I agree that there are merits to that. If we don't care to model relationships, it would come down to who are the biological parents and who is raising the child. The parents then would be male+female pairs and child mentoring could be entirely separate from parenthood. Is that what you were going for? It seems pretty non-controversial.

@AwesomeOcelot: that's a fair point to an extent. Biological inheritance is strictly biological, but surely familial/cultural expertise can be inherited as well? Think of tradesmen and guilds. I'd also point out that this is a fantasy setting that explicitly has bloodline powers, so the scientific view of inheritance may not directly apply.

@Mugen: Burying an orientation switch deep within an options menu is an even worse solution. What's the default setting? If it matches my own, that's great for me, but if it didn't then not only do I have to set a ridiculous setting, but I have to go hunting for it as well. You seem to be suggesting that straight and gay people cannot possibly enjoy the same game, which I think is untrue. I also don't see how my point 4 conflicted with point 3. I'm not suggesting that orientation is a choice, but that behaviour based on orientation is a choice and that orientation is not always binary. Yes, this is a more nuanced depiction of sexual orientation then we're likely to get (and possibly more elaborate then appropriate for this context), but it's not unrealistic. I'm also not arguing about what should happen in real life, but giving some ideas for what I'd think would make a fun game.

What you said is more or less how I see it yeah. I actually kind of like it in this sort of game when the systems are at least somewhat abstracted and less detailed, because it forces me to make up stories in my head about what is going on. I start imagining a romance between two characters, and plan to marry them together, but then a better match for one of them comes along and then suddenly :o love triangle! But it's just a fun story I'm telling myself in my head, it doesn't all have to be modeled directly in the systems when it's all kept kinda loose and with the player filling in the gaps.

It's like how in XCOM there'll be that one character who is always, just randomly, pulling off AWESOME improbable shots, and that becomes part of my story about that character, without the game having to go out and say it. It makes me more attached, because I feel like I have some authorship in their stories. Does that make sense?

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This thread has become a big tl;dr for someone coming in as late as I am so I don't know if someone has already made this point but I think having gay couples in the game gives sex and relationships to much emphasis in the game. This isn't the Sims (at least I hope it isn't) and isn't about making a happy family. It's about humans creating epic bloodlines. I think sex and relationships will be (and should be) left out of the game as much as possible. Unless gay couples can enhance the game mechanics why do we need them? To be honest, if there were some way to remove straight couples from the game I think that would be for the best but the truth of the matter it is pretty much a necessity. At least I can't think of a way around it. I would prefer it if any and all forms of sex, love and relationships were kept out of the game as much as possible. Let's just keep it about war tactics. That's just my thoughts.

Well, sorry it's TL;DR but if you had taken the time then you'd realise that we've been having awesome discussions about how more types of relationship actually could enhance the gameplay in all sorts of fun ways - and Brad and the team think our suggestions and discussion have been awesome. So, y'know. I'd suggest that you maybe refrain from adding your 2c to a thread that, by your own admission, you couldn't even be bothered to read. Because all the 'problems' you have mentioned have been solved in a million different ways by this point. I mean, I propose one solution in the very first post - you couldn't even get that far before hitting post reply? :)

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Well, sorry it's TL;DR but if you had taken the time then you'd realise that we've been having awesome discussions about how more types of relationship actually could enhance the gameplay in all sorts of fun ways - and Brad and the team think our suggestions and discussion have been awesome. So, y'know. I'd suggest that you maybe refrain from adding your 2c to a thread that, by your own admission, you couldn't even be bothered to read. Because all the 'problems' you have mentioned have been solved in a million different ways by this point. I mean, I propose one solution in the very first post - you couldn't even get that far before hitting post reply? :)

I'm sorry if my bluntness (bluntness) offended you. I really don't want to start an arguement on what otherwise seems like a productive thread. I didn't mean tl;dr because I couldn't be bothered. I'm at work so I literally can't take the amount of time it would take to read every post. (I shouldn't even be posting this.) I started on the last page and hoped for the best. How do you cherry pick which posts to read? Anyway, if you have a good way to incorporate gay couples into the game that I have missed and that doesn't add "Sims-like" qualities to the game play then great and I'm sorry I wasted your time with my 2 cents.

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