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KestrelPi

Massive Chalice and same sex couples

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So your argument boils down to "inclusivity is really complex, so best not to try, even where it would be easy or even useful." Riiiight.

You're proposing entire new sets of mechanics just to catter you your own group. How's that any easier or useful than adding a religion system? Or cultural backrounds? Political systems?

That IS a political statement, you're lobbying for gay mechanics ahead of others mechanics you don't even know if will be in-game, and worse, using other people money for that. Why my money should be used to better represent gays in gaming, all while my entire cultural background is ignored far more than gays? Why can't this just be a nice fantasy game, focused on being fun, instead of worrying about real life issues and political correctness?

The moment Brad says "I want this game to be inclusive", he's opening a pandora box, there are many groups far more under represented, and it will be ridiculous if all his inclusive talk boils down to "there are gay people".

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So your argument boils down to "inclusivity is really complex, so best not to try, even where it would be easy or even useful." Riiiight.

You're proposing entire new sets of mechanics just to catter you your own group.

No, I'm proposing new sets of mechanics that cater to a variety of groups. The mechanics I proposed are completely neutral to whether the couple is straight, gay, and could even apply to singletons. You're reading things in to what I'm asking that JUST DON'T EXIST. I have to wonder why this is so hard for you to get. Also, lol. I'm 'lobbying?'

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@SurplusGamer

I'm cautious when it comes to game design because everything is possible, without knowing something about the world/society/species/... they have in mind, it can be everything from superfluous and annoy a certain percentage of gamers to offering some really cool and reasonable options. The easy way is when you're free to choose and it doesn't come with the burden that you must choose a gay couple in order to get this cool feature. On the other side if properly integrated it can be more interesting and some gamers also might learn something about tolerance and being more open minded as well. If they do it right it is a win.

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I think that's highly disingenuous to say it's not political then to talk about the "sub-text" of eugenics of choosing mating pairs and breeding being the only way to be useful to society, I think those are political statements and wanting to change the game away from that is also political. I wouldn't support a society that forcibly matched people on their genes or the message that one must breed to be useful, but I don't see the connection between something being represented in game and advocating it in reality, there's no subtext there. So what if a fictional fantasy world where clearly the capacity for violence is greatly valued also has selected breeding? It's just fiction, it sounds interesting. In games I may even play an extremely evil person.

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Also, lol. I'm 'lobbying?'

Yes, you are lobbying. You are asking the developers to make changes to their game to suit your own wants and desires.

It's no different from someone asking them to include certain feudal aspects to the game, or asking them to change any graphical qualities.

I think that's highly disingenuous to say it's not political then to talk about the "sub-text" of eugenics of choosing mating pairs and breeding being the only way to be useful to society, I think those are political statements and wanting to change the game away from that is also political. I wouldn't support a society that forcibly matched people on their genes or the message that one must breed to be useful, but I don't see the connection between something being represented in game and advocating it in reality, there's no subtext there. So what if a fictional fantasy world where clearly the capacity for violence is greatly valued also has selected breeding? It's just fiction, it sounds interesting. In games I may even play an extremely evil person.

Pretty much this... I guess what irks me is that developers aren't allowed to tell their story they way they desire to, and instead "must" modify their story to suit the needs of others. How many different religious groups exist in the world? Should they too not have the right to request that DF tweak the game so that their wants and desires are better represented? So that they can play the game in a manner that suits their religion as well? What about political leanings? Racial leanings?

Let's just let this game BE A GAME and not a political statement.

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You're proposing entire new sets of mechanics just to catter you your own group.

No, I'm proposing new sets of mechanics that cater to a variety of groups. The mechanics I proposed are completely neutral to whether the couple is straight, gay, and could even apply to singletons. You're reading things in to what I'm asking that JUST DON'T EXIST. I have to wonder why this is so hard for you to get. Also, lol. I'm 'lobbying?'

You created this thread, named it "Massive Chalice and same sex couples", started it by saying you're gay and feel bad by being opressed by society into having kids, and even stated:

seems to me like you’re accidentally making a game about making the best possible heterosexuals.

And now you wanna say it was all about improving the game, nothing gay-releated? Hah. If a catholic asked for a religion system, so he could play as a catholic man, he would be pushing in his religious views on the game, you're doing just the same.

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You're proposing entire new sets of mechanics just to catter you your own group.

No, I'm proposing new sets of mechanics that cater to a variety of groups. The mechanics I proposed are completely neutral to whether the couple is straight, gay, and could even apply to singletons. You're reading things in to what I'm asking that JUST DON'T EXIST. I have to wonder why this is so hard for you to get. Also, lol. I'm 'lobbying?'

You created this thread, named it "Massive Chalice and same sex couples", started it by saying you're gay and feel bad by being opressed by society into having kids, and even stated:

seems to me like you’re accidentally making a game about making the best possible heterosexuals.

And now you wanna say it was all about improving the game, nothing gay-releated? Hah. If a catholic asked for a religion system, so he could play as a catholic man, he would be pushing in his religious views on the game, you're doing just the same.

The discussion started as me thinking about whether it would be possible for gay people to be in the game. The idea I proposed, is neutral with regard to sexuality and is all about giving players more strategic choices. Why is this so hard to understand?

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Pretty much this... I guess what irks me is that developers aren't allowed to tell their story they way they desire to, and instead "must" modify their story to suit the needs of others. How many different religious groups exist in the world? Should they too not have the right to request that DF tweak the game so that their wants and desires are better represented? So that they can play the game in a manner that suits their religion as well? What about political leanings? Racial leanings?

Let's just let this game BE A GAME and not a political statement.

Yeah, I'm fucking tired of all this political issues into my hobbies...

"Wahhh, characters in Dragon's Crown are ironically stereothypical, but I don't get the joke and think it's mysoginist!"

"Wahhh, there are no black people in nordic pantheon, make Heimdall, a.k.a. THE WHITEST GOD, a black man!"

"Wahhh, my muslin-slayer US marine can't be gay!"

"Wahhh, you can't show concentration camps! Nuclear bombs that US threw over japanese civilians in one of the worst war crimes in history are extremely cool, but concentration camps NO!"

"Wahhh, gays can't breed, so they would be weaker in your breeding game... there are no gays, but you should add them and change the game to fit them."

People like this are pasteurizing cultures; they come in their high horses, don't like it without even trying to understand the context & background, and demand it changed to fit their world views... and then they go "vidya gaimes are ART!". No self-respecting artist bows down to political corretness like that.

The discussion started as me thinking about whether it would be possible for gay people to be in the game. The idea I proposed, is neutral with regard to sexuality and is all about giving players more strategic choices. Why is this so hard to understand?

Exactly, the sole reason you proposed that idea was to have gay people in the game. You have no idea of what mechanics are in game, how deep it will be, how the combat will work... Almost anything would add more "strategic choices"; religion, politics, ideology, morale, culture, temperature, food, random events, whatever... yet the one thing you propose is the one that adds gay people, that you thought of only because you're gay and don't like that gays seems at a disavantage in the present game. How is that not pushing your agenda in?

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You're proposing entire new sets of mechanics just to catter you your own group.

No, I'm proposing new sets of mechanics that cater to a variety of groups. The mechanics I proposed are completely neutral to whether the couple is straight, gay, and could even apply to singletons. You're reading things in to what I'm asking that JUST DON'T EXIST. I have to wonder why this is so hard for you to get. Also, lol. I'm 'lobbying?'

You created this thread, named it "Massive Chalice and same sex couples", started it by saying you're gay and feel bad by being opressed by society into having kids, and even stated:

seems to me like you’re accidentally making a game about making the best possible heterosexuals.

And now you wanna say it was all about improving the game, nothing gay-releated? Hah. If a catholic asked for a religion system, so he could play as a catholic man, he would be pushing in his religious views on the game, you're doing just the same.

The discussion started as me thinking about whether it would be possible for gay people to be in the game. The idea I proposed, is neutral with regard to sexuality and is all about giving players more strategic choices. Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't think that people are misunderstanding what you are saying. The main point is that same-sex marriage is currently a politically hot topic right now and there seems no good reason to make mechanics revolving around this just to appease those in said group. While there could be great mechanics such as adoption and apprenticeship, I don't think it should be thrown in the game for the sake of throwing it in the game. That is what we call bad design. I don't think that this conversation should devolve into a hate discussion, but we need to think a little more objectively at what mechanics are actually important to the game vs. to make a political statement. It is a fine line that most of the time ends up on the wrong side.

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Pretty much this... I guess what irks me is that developers aren't allowed to tell their story they way they desire to, and instead "must" modify their story to suit the needs of others. How many different religious groups exist in the world? Should they too not have the right to request that DF tweak the game so that their wants and desires are better represented? So that they can play the game in a manner that suits their religion as well? What about political leanings? Racial leanings?

Let's just let this game BE A GAME and not a political statement.

Yeah, I'm fucking tired of all this political issues into my hobbies...

"Wahhh, characters in Dragon's Crown are ironically stereothypical, but I don't get the joke and think it's mysoginist!"

"Wahhh, there are no black people in nordic pantheon, make Heimdall, a.k.a. THE WHITEST GOD, a black man!"

"Wahhh, my muslin-slayer US marine can't be gay!"

"Wahhh, you can't show concentration camps! Nuclear bombs that US threw over japanese civilians in one of the worst war crimes in history are extremely cool, but concentration camps NO!"

"Wahhh, gays can't breed, so they would be weaker in your breeding game... there are no gays, but you should add them and change the game to fit them."

People like this are pasteurizing cultures; they come in their high horses, don't like it without even trying to understand the context & background, and demand it changed to fit their world views... and then they go "vidya gaimes are ART!". No self-respecting artist bows down to political corretness like that.

The discussion started as me thinking about whether it would be possible for gay people to be in the game. The idea I proposed, is neutral with regard to sexuality and is all about giving players more strategic choices. Why is this so hard to understand?

Exactly, the sole reason you proposed that idea was to have gay people in the game. You have no idea of what mechanics are in game, how deep it will be, how the combat will work... Almost anything would add more "strategic choices"; religion, politics, ideology, morale, culture, temperature, food, random events, whatever... yet the one thing you propose is the one that adds gay people, that you thought of only because you're gay and don't like that gays seems at a disavantage in the present game. How is that not pushing your agenda in?

You seem awfully sure of my motivations, for someone who isn't me. But let's humour you. What do my motivations matter, if it makes the game better? I'm not even saying this is the only 'agenda' which should be pushed. If you want something to be in the game and have an idea how it could be cool, propose it! I'm not stopping you! I just proposed this one. Or are you saying that if I propose one idea then I have to propose ALL ideas otherwise I'm obviously pushing an agenda?

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And the hateful, intolerant underbelly of the DF fandom shines through~

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I think same sex couples should be represented more in gaming, for sure. I was actually discussing this topic with a gay best friend of mine, long story cut short, incredibly short! We both agreed that if the inclusion of same sex couples makes sense for the context of the game then it should be implemented (for example how well it works within Dragon Age II relationships and certain houses of pleasure) but If it gets in the way of the main set of design pillars, such as in Massive Chalice wherein raising a line of successors is an important cornerstone then it should be carefully looked at to see if it really can be implemented into the formula without disrupting it. There's nothing worse than seeing a mechanic shoe-horned in.

BUT then again, it's early day's; Pre-production and all that! If same sex couples can be implemented correctly and tastefully, then do it! Do it noooow :)

I apologize ten-fold if I offended anyone with what I said, like so many other people in this thread have said, it's hard not to step on peoples toes sometimes when throwing in their two cents on certain issues.

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I think same sex couples should be represented more in gaming, for sure. I was actually discussing this topic with a gay best friend of mine, long story cut short, incredibly short! We both agreed that if the inclusion of same sex couples makes sense for the context of the game then it should be implemented (for example how well it works within Dragon Age II relationships and certain houses of pleasure) but If it gets in the way of the main set of design pillars, such as in Massive Chalice wherein raising a line of successors is an important cornerstone then it should be carefully looked at to see if it really can be implemented into the formula without disrupting it. There's nothing worse than seeing a mechanic shoe-horned in.

BUT then again, it's early day's; Pre-production and all that! If same sex couples can be implemented correctly and tastefully, then do it! Do it noooow :)

I apologize ten-fold if I offended anyone with what I said, like so many other people in this thread have said, it's hard not to step on peoples toes sometimes when throwing in their two cents on certain issues.

I agree with all of this, which is why I was so happy that early on in the thread people were taking it in the spirit intended and coming up with cool suggestions for how it would work well with the existing mechanics or with changes that would be good for the strategic choices in the game. That's why this thread was so awesome, we were talking about inclusivity, but we were also talking about it in the context of awesome game design. But that discussion seems to have got sidetracked by a load of hand-wringing.

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Has everyone only been burying their big fat stupid heads in the in the "omg GAY PEOPLE EVERYWHERE WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE MY GAMES AWAY FROM ME" thing, or has literally no one been reading the totally legit, well presented, and really well thought out ways having same sex couples in a game that has bloodlines and heritage as ONE of it's features (and possibly that not even being the main feature, so shut your damn mouth if you think same sex couples get in the way of that) could produce some really interesting situations that would diversify your choices in the game?

Honestly reading the latest responses to why same sex couples shouldn't be in the game makes me sick. I'm talking about the "ooohh well, not EVERYONE needs to be represented y'know" arguments. Except if someone said yeah straight white males should be left out from the game, theres way too many games with them anyway I bet the majority of you making this argument would turn around and start making the argument about inclusiveness covering everyone, even straight white males

And then theres the moronic argument of "it's a game, not politics!!". Yeah you're right about that too. At least in the sense that its a nonexistent, fiction-based form of entertainment where literally anything can happen. Why the crap CAN'T we have gay couples reproducing as well?? What's stopping you from considering that as a possible mechanic?

Y'know what I don't even want to sugar coat it anymore: your opinions are bad. If your opinions boil down to "I just don't want gay people in the game" then you should feel bad, you deserve to feel ostracized for having those opinions and I hope you don't share them here

Now once everyone's done airing out their homophobia, let's discuss why this COULD be an interesting tactic, regardless of why you personally feel they shouldn't. Because no one cares why they shouldn't, because that's not what the topic is about

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I agree with all of this, which is why I was so happy that early on in the thread people were taking it in the spirit intended and coming up with cool suggestions for how it would work well with the existing mechanics or with changes that would be good for the strategic choices in the game. That's why this thread was so awesome, we were talking about inclusivity, but we were also talking about it in the context of awesome game design. But that discussion seems to have got sidetracked by a load of hand-wringing.

I think much like any other topic one might suggest on this message board, people are going to disagree and argue with what you say be it on the suggestion of same sex couples or the implementation/ alteration of any other existing mechanic. The subject just get's a little more sensitive when it directly relates to an individuals life style and as such can end up feeling like people are personally attacking them.

Don't feel down though, like you mentioned earlier Brad has took notice of you and many others points and I believe he will do the right thing by the game and by us the players :)

I for one would love to get this topic back on track properly!

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I trust Brad and Team will make some great choices.

Just to reiterate what I said pages ago. :)

Smiles

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Has everyone only been burying their big fat stupid heads in the in the "omg GAY PEOPLE EVERYWHERE WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE MY GAMES AWAY FROM ME" thing, or has literally no one been reading the totally legit, well presented, and really well thought out ways having same sex couples in a game that has bloodlines and heritage as ONE of it's features (and possibly that not even being the main feature, so shut your damn mouth if you think same sex couples get in the way of that) could produce some really interesting situations that would diversify your choices in the game?

Honestly reading the latest responses to why same sex couples shouldn't be in the game makes me sick. I'm talking about the "ooohh well, not EVERYONE needs to be represented y'know" arguments. Except if someone said yeah straight white males should be left out from the game, theres way too many games with them anyway I bet the majority of you making this argument would turn around and start making the argument about inclusiveness covering everyone, even straight white males

And then theres the moronic argument of "it's a game, not politics!!". Yeah you're right about that too. At least in the sense that its a nonexistent, fiction-based form of entertainment where literally anything can happen. Why the crap CAN'T we have gay couples reproducing as well?? What's stopping you from considering that as a possible mechanic?

Y'know what I don't even want to sugar coat it anymore: your opinions are bad. If you're opinions boil down to "I just don't want gay people in the game" then you should feel bad, you deserve to feel ostracized for having those opinions and I hope you don't share them here

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the right to insult them. Also politics is a good argument because throwing a mechanic in for the sake of inclusion is bad regardless of said mechanic. Your arguments are completely emotionally driven giving them no objectivity. Oh and to respond to the "why can't gay couples reproduce?"... I don't know if I need to explain biology but it doesn't work that way. You could, for the sake of argument, say that this is a fantasy world and sex doesn't matter... but in that case why have genders at all? The main point is that sexuality in general is not the focus of this game and should not be thrown in unless it can seamlessly be added without being thrown in users' faces. If they can add it without it being a blatant (WE ARE INCLUDING EVERYONE) mechanic, then all power to them.

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And what's so wrong with including people for the sake of including people if it doesn't in any way interfere with the game?

And if you say sex and sexuality aren't the main focus then why is it such an issue if two characters are arbitrarily gay? If two gay characters could reproduce because of fantastical game elements, and the outcome would be the same, or even different, why is it an issue?

Why does the word "gay couples" cropping up immediately set your minds to work on thinking up ways to keep it out of the game, instead of how it could work with it?

Because homophobia, that's why. That is also the reason I insult these folks.

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And what's so wrong with including people for the sake of including people if it doesn't in any way interfere with the game?

And if you say sex and sexuality aren't the main focus then why is it such an issue if two characters are arbitrarily gay?

It's an issue because homosexuality is inherently a sexual issue. Like I said, if they could figure out a way to add it in that adds to the gameplay without shoving it in people's faces, more power to them. It just should not be the focus of the game. Again... the point is, if a game mechanic does not add to the game, it should not be included. Anyone who has taken classes on game design and theory knows this.

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Who ever said it'd be THAT prominent a feature? I don't know if you've read the thread title but here we're discussing how it could be utilized as a game mechanic, or even just how it could be included in the game somehow for a more inclusive experience. And all I'm reading is people say "ew no, why would you do that"

The fact that so many people automatically assume if theres any kind of gay it's all you're ever going to see speaks volumes about why those same people shouldn't be talking about why it shouldn't be a mechanic

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And what's so wrong with including people for the sake of including people if it doesn't in any way interfere with the game?

And if you say sex and sexuality aren't the main focus then why is it such an issue if two characters are arbitrarily gay?

It's an issue because homosexuality is inherently a sexual issue. Like I said, if they could figure out a way to add it in that adds to the gameplay without shoving it in people's faces, more power to them. It just should not be the focus of the game. Again... the point is, if a game mechanic does not add to the game, it should not be included. Anyone who has taken classes on game design and theory knows this.

You know what else is inherently a sexual issue? Heterosexuality. And our lifestyle is constantly being shoved in gay people's faces. I think it would be pretty refreshing to even out that balance a little. And there's already been mentioned several examples of how it could work pretty nicely gameplay wise.

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Who ever said it'd be THAT prominent a feature? I don't know if you've read the thread title but here we're discussing how it could be utilized as a game mechanic, or even just how it could be included in the game somehow for a more inclusive experience. And all I'm reading is people say "ew no, why would you do that"

The fact that so many people automatically assume if theres any kind of gay it's all you're ever going to see speaks volumes about why those same people shouldn't be talking about why it shouldn't be a mechanic

.. sometimes I feel like it is impossible to have a civil discussion about these topics because people just get emotionally charged. Some people have made good suggestions of how it could be included... I am just saying there should be some caution in adding in random mechanics as they can detract from the overall experience which is to win a 200 (or whatever it is) year war. And to say it again, for a third time, if they can add it in a way that is not arbitrary or in people's faces, then do it.

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People wouldn't get emotionally charged if there weren't so many stupid people coming in making bad arguments and then denying their arguments are bad or homophobic in any way. In fact, it'd be alot better if people would just not make those arguments and instead stick to the thread topic about how it could be a good mechanic. If you don't think it's a good mechanic, fine great, but this is not the "why it's a bad mechanic thread". It's not like DF is reading this thread documenting every idea to be put in the game, it was meant to be a fun "what if' scenario

And y'know what, thats fine if people get upset. People should be mad and upset that other people still think this way. People that think that way shouldn't have their opinions coddled or have those opinions treated like they're respectable any way. Because they aren't.

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And what's so wrong with including people for the sake of including people if it doesn't in any way interfere with the game?

And if you say sex and sexuality aren't the main focus then why is it such an issue if two characters are arbitrarily gay?

It's an issue because homosexuality is inherently a sexual issue. Like I said, if they could figure out a way to add it in that adds to the gameplay without shoving it in people's faces, more power to them. It just should not be the focus of the game. Again... the point is, if a game mechanic does not add to the game, it should not be included. Anyone who has taken classes on game design and theory knows this.

You know what else is inherently a sexual issue? Heterosexuality. And our lifestyle is constantly being shoved in gay people's faces. I think it would be pretty refreshing to even out that balance a little. And there's already been mentioned several examples of how it could work pretty nicely gameplay wise.

:) I know what you're trying to say with this and thank you. But one important point is that I never feel like heterosexuality is being 'shoved in my face' because I grew up with it all around me. If I'd like one thing, it's not to counter by 'shoving back', but rather encourage a society where people feel the same way about homosexuality as I do about heterosexuality.

Psychonauts and Brutal Legend were both games with explicitly straight male leads (okay, they might have been bi, but their only romantic interests were women). I love those games, I don't care about that. They were telling the story they wanted to tell, and that's cool! Didn't bother me one bit to live in the skin of a straight guy for the purpose of playing the games, and I don't think it should bother me either.

But here, because in the pitch they were so very focused on the idea of couples and bloodlines, I thought, 'huh, I wonder if there is a way of doing that which could include same sex couples, because otherwise it might unintentionally come across as a bit of a straight power fantasy, where the only way to be strong is to make babies.' I wasn't whipped up into a frenzied politically correct outrage, I just thought I'd bring it up. Then I, and other people started coming up with ideas, and the awesome thing about those ideas is that they weren't about shoehorning 'gayness' into the game, they were looking at how marriage and child-rearing in the game as a whole could present the player with more interesting gameplay choices than had so far been discussed.

If playing straight male characters doesn't bother me (like probably more than 50% of games I've ever played), I don't see why the idea of some people wanting to form same sex relationships in this game should bother anyone else, especially in light of the completely constructive discussion that we were having about it before.

Also, let's dispense with the idea I keep seeing that only gay people would ever use same sex couples. Some straight people aren't so insecure.

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It seems like the main argument against this here is that you need a male and female to have a baby. So same sex couples in the medieval age would be a genetic dead end. In a game about succession this seems like your shooting yourself in the foot game play wise. If we get surrogates involved this seems a little weird for the time period and just a bit in depth.

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It seems like the main argument against this here is that you need a male and female to have a baby. So same sex couples in the medieval age would be a genetic dead end. In a game about succession this seems like your shooting yourself in the foot game play wise. If we get surrogates involved this seems a little weird for the time period and just a bit in depth.

Yes, that's certainly a question, in fact it's the question that got me thinking about this in the first place - but there's been lots of cool ideas about this which might make the game cooler for everyone, I'd encourage you to read the first couple of pages in the thread. Also the game isn't in a 'time period', it's in a feudal fantasy realm of DF's devising.

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People wouldn't get emotionally charged if there weren't so many stupid people coming in making bad arguments and then denying their arguments are bad or homophobic in any way.

One day you'll grow up and realise that going around screaming "I'm special, give me special privileges!" is nothing but veiled racism, you're threating yourself as weaker/inferior; that it cause even more prejudice since no one likes being censored or imposed by "special groups". I was simply stating my arguments, but the inferiority complex inside you is screaming that I'm picking on you, so it must be "homophobia", right?

Once it reach this point there is no purpose in debating it further. I'll be waiting to see if Brad's "Inclusive" means anything more than GAY PEOPLE, and if he'll sacrifice gameplay just to score points with vocal minorities... becaquse I assure you he won't get my money for that.

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People wouldn't get emotionally charged if there weren't so many stupid people coming in making bad arguments and then denying their arguments are bad or homophobic in any way.

One day you'll grow up and realise that going around screaming "I'm special, give me special privileges!" is nothing but veiled racism, you're threating yourself as weaker/inferior; that it cause even more prejudice since no one likes being censored or imposed by "special groups". I was simply stating my arguments, but the inferiority complex inside you is screaming that I'm picking on you, so it must be "homophobia", right?

Once it reach this point there is no purpose in debating it further. I'll be waiting to see if Brad's "Inclusive" means anything more than GAY PEOPLE, and if he'll sacrifice gameplay just to score points with vocal minorities... becaquse I assure you he won't get my money for that.

Apparently now politely asking for your existence to be acknowledged is a demand for "special privileges" and... er, somehow racist. We're learning a lot today!

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Yes, because going around screaming "I'm special, give me special privileges" is exactly what I'm doing. I can't believe these are the dunkass replies I get on here. And it's quite funny you bring up the word "privileges", because I could probably start an argument about how wonderfully privileged straight white males are that they could say "no gays, please" and be heard and taken seriously, but if other groups ask for just a little bit of representation in the game you get the majority of this thread, with it's whining and crying about how awful it is to have gay people in games and how it would ruin just everything and it doesn't make sense, but this isn't the GP thread.

No, what I'm angry about is how this thread was intended to be used for discussing the potential of same sex couples as being part of the game, whether for arbritary inclusiveness that might appease some folks without getting in the way of the game, or even as a full blown feature that could add to the diversity of the game, and it was going pretty well and there was some good discussion until everyone else decided to rain on the parade and go "ew ew ew ewwww no". The fact that just the thought of potentially having gay people in a game as part of a mechanic elicits such a negative response leads me to believe folks have some issues, which by the way is up to the said bearer of issues to deal with it.

It's not like anyone was saying "DF, you BETTER include gay people in the game or I'm not pledging". Nope, talk about any other potential features that could be included in the game and people will happily brainstorm with you. But gay people? Oh no, they simply cannot imagine a game featuring gay people in them, let alone how they might serve as part of a unique game mechanic

I find it pretty fucking pathetic, yeah

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Now I see you didn't even read my posts, because I'm not even a firstworld white guy; I'm a brown-skinned brazilian, that wonders why the hell gays need to ask to be included everywhere, when other minorities/cultures that have WAY LESS representation even thought they are WAY MORE numerous are ok with being left out.

So what 'm saying is, dear developer, don't bother about my or other minorities, forget real world political issues and focus on making the game good. But nooooo, since gays are clearly most opressed minority in the world they have the right to be in or is homophobia! How dare you ask them not to shove in their agenda!

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