Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Shoganai

Getting a little nervous....

Recommended Posts

that what seemed like an amazing attempt to recapture some of the final fantasy tactics style gaming in an epic feudal game.... is slowly being morphed into a dating sim.... -.-

Certainly hope that isn't the case tbh.... whistle.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any need to worry. There's a lot of talk about things like that just because it's something that can be talked about. Other mechanics are not yet known fully enough to be discussed in detail but as we know that bloodlines are important to the game, that means that characters will get married and have kids and such. I really doubt that the actual game will be very detailed in that respect, focusing more on the raising of the next generation of heroes and battling the evil hordes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It shouldn't be exactly any of those things, as opposed to its own unique experience but it's worth bearing in mind that we have no idea how the game will work aside form those comparisons. The kickstarter doesn't give much information, we just know that marriages and bloodlines will be important.

In fact they're really the only system we know anything about - we we don't know anything about the combat aside from it'll be "tactical", we don't know about the setting aside from it'll have demons vs a Feudal monarcy, we don't know about research, win/loss conditions, scale (will it be armies or squads) or really anything at all.

So really what else have people got to enough information to speculate on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You've got to trust them to filter out the ideas that don't match the vision. Though, this is a good place to mention such concerns. I am most pleased that this will be an FFTactics-esque fantasy turn-based RPG. It's also exciting that there's some multi-generation mechanic being implemented here.

As long as those mechanics are very strong then I can tolerate the fluff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think some people are just a bit uneasy treating their PCs like cattle that is only meant to be bred and slaughtered for the greater good. Then there is the concept of forced procreation which may leave a foul taste in their mouth. So I can see why some people wish for a more romantic approach to progeny production. Of course there are those who want a dating sim and I wonder about their train of thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think some people are just a bit uneasy treating their PCs like cattle that is only meant to be bred and slaughtered for the greater good. Then there is the concept of forced procreation which may leave a foul taste in their mouth. So I can see why some people wish for a more romantic approach to progeny production. Of course there are those who want a dating sim and I wonder about their train of thought.
You basically just described Feudal Europe's treatment and view of the surfs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think some people are just a bit uneasy treating their PCs like cattle that is only meant to be bred and slaughtered for the greater good. Then there is the concept of forced procreation which may leave a foul taste in their mouth. So I can see why some people wish for a more romantic approach to progeny production. Of course there are those who want a dating sim and I wonder about their train of thought.

Is the uneasiness really a bad thing? You're saving your kingdom from demons, and being forced to make tough decisions to do that in an inherently unfair system. I think it'd actually be really interesting for the families to have their own preferences that you can override at the potential cost of their happiness and willingness to pledge resources to you. It'd make for some very interesting long term strategic choices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discussion ≠ Inclusion

The reason people are discussing dating/breading ect is because it's a complicated feature that hasn't been seen in many games. Think of the forums as the refinery for the ideas and the DF staff as the sorting machine, picking out which ones they like the best. The more discussion means they have more ideas to sort through and pick from - Definitely a good thing.

The tactical combat isn't being discussed as much for the opposite reason. The pitch states that they are being inspired by the likes of Xcom and Fire Emblem, there is no real need to discuss this part of the game as it's something that has been refined countless times over the course of the genre's history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's true, but I'd assume they're not going to just be copying a certain game for their tactical combat. It already interacts with the bloodline system, so it'd be worth seeing which aspects of those games the DF team like and want to include, versus the ones they don't think are appropriate for their system/setting.

I mean, an X-Com-like cover system doesn't make much sense when you're swordfighting so if that's an influence we really don't know what it would bring to the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bottom line, really, is that discussion helps us know where we are on an idea, but doesn't mean that idea will be formative, important, or even included at all. I backed this game because I have faith in the team doing the work to make a great game in the vein that they said they wanted to make. I'll suggest things I think are cool, and I'll talk about everything I have the energy to talk about, but ultimately my desire for Super-Robot-Wars-meets-Fire-Emblem is my vision, and it's Brad's vision that we're paying for regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You basically just described Feudal Europe's treatment and view of the surfs.

I know and it makes me giddy.

Is the uneasiness really a bad thing? You're saving your kingdom from demons, and being forced to make tough decisions to do that in an inherently unfair system. I think it'd actually be really interesting for the families to have their own preferences that you can override at the potential cost of their happiness and willingness to pledge resources to you. It'd make for some very interesting long term strategic choices.

Many people hate being bad. I love the idea that you may have to commit atrocities to survive and I think pushing people out of their comfort zone is something that media should be doing more often. But given that, I think the game would have to be a bit silly, just to balance out the discomfort people would have with a despotic ruler implementing a eugenics program to save their kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think of this as a free metagame where I am the evil demon whispering ideas about dating sims into Double Fine's ear and it's your job to use the power of words to stop me. It'll be like the conversation battles in Deus Ex: HR, except more dorky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It makes sense than people would be most excited about and want to talk the most about the part of the TRPG formula that is fresh and novel. If MASSIVE CHALICE was just a clone of FFT or any other TRPG, it wouldn't be exciting or interesting, and probably Double Fine wouldn't even want to make it, because they're generally interested in doing new, quirky stuff.

If the conversation seems more weighted on the side of coupling and breeding, it's just because that's where all the newness is. I don't think it means the standard TRPG stuff is getting sanded away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It makes sense than people would be most excited about and want to talk the most about the part of the TRPG formula that is fresh and novel. If MASSIVE CHALICE was just a clone of FFT or any other TRPG, it wouldn't be exciting or interesting, and probably Double Fine wouldn't even want to make it, because they're generally interested in doing new, quirky stuff.

If the conversation seems more weighted on the side of coupling and breeding, it's just because that's where all the newness is. I don't think it means the standard TRPG stuff is getting sanded away.

Yeah, this is it. It doesn't sound to me like Double Fine are trying to revolutionise tactical battlefield mechanics. I think probably what we'll get in the battles is a great turn based strategy with an awesome double fine flavour and a few cool mechanics, which is fine, but at this point it doesn't fire up the imagination as much as the possibility of the arranged marriages, and the bloodlines, and the aspect of fighting a war over hundreds of years.

In the end, the relationship stuff has got to serve the battles. They're not going to put anything in the game that can't later feed back into the battles. So I'm interested in all the ways that the heroes could contribute to the war effort that don't involve breeding, while some people are really interested in exactly how inheritance will work... but right now it's all just throwing ideas around.

It's a fun part of development, but I think also fun is the point when all those ideas start to fall into place to become a gameplay machine that actually works. I'm very much looking to videos of them going deep on that, but they're not at that point yet. I think we're actually really lucky to be able to back this at this really early stage, because it's when some of the most interesting decisions get made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think for me when I see comments suggesting cut scenes, or negotiations, or dialogues to build relationships red flags start appearing. That to me is something I'm really not that interested it (myself anyway). I don't mind a small negotiation window where we might need to 'bribe' or 'threaten' our way to success, but I think possibly expanding this to the point that it almost takes on a "mini-game context" isn't going to be for the best. I really don't want to be sitting in my hundred year war worried that i didn't send a box of chocolates to a possible match... or that I didn't contact her via crystal ball/courier/pigeon quick enough after our last visit. Adding a relationship micromanaging system will definitely be a turn off (for me at least).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This game needs a castle building and resource management aspect to allow players to not only attack demons but to repel their invasions/attacks as well. Kinda like adding a side of stronghold into the main dish of trpg goodness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think for me when I see comments suggesting cut scenes, or negotiations, or dialogues to build relationships red flags start appearing. That to me is something I'm really not that interested it (myself anyway). I don't mind a small negotiation window where we might need to 'bribe' or 'threaten' our way to success, but I think possibly expanding this to the point that it almost takes on a "mini-game context" isn't going to be for the best. I really don't want to be sitting in my hundred year war worried that i didn't send a box of chocolates to a possible match... or that I didn't contact her via crystal ball/courier/pigeon quick enough after our last visit. Adding a relationship micromanaging system will definitely be a turn off (for me at least).

I always remember something that Scott C said during one of the earlier Broken Age documentaries, but it applies to a lot of areas of creativity. Really early on, it's not very helpful to shut down possible roads of exploration because of being worried about where they might lead. This is exactly the right time to be saying "Well, what if [pretty much anything at all...]?" Because then when you do get to the point of starting to pin things down and make an actual game, you know you've been thorough in your initial exploration.

That's why it's cool to have the backers taking part in this stage, because it's very difficult to just be flat out wrong at the moment. They might not use your idea, but something you say might inspire something else, and so forth... but in the end, they're pro game designers and I trust them to move from this stage to something that will necessarily leave out a lot of what's being talked about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think for me when I see comments suggesting cut scenes, or negotiations, or dialogues to build relationships red flags start appearing.

Same for me, to some extent, especially when people start mentioning "Quests." I'm pretty sure the Massive Chalice is supposed to be a tactical strategy game, not a RPG. Still, I think relationships could be handled in an interesting, procedural, and simple way without becoming micromanagement heavy; it's not the sims, after all.

Specifically, I think there could be something compelling about arranging marriages (and the potential conflicts—viz. stats are affected—when those marriages are unhappy), but too much beyond that and the game would cease to be about strategy and management.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think for me when I see comments suggesting cut scenes, or negotiations, or dialogues to build relationships red flags start appearing. That to me is something I'm really not that interested it (myself anyway). I don't mind a small negotiation window where we might need to 'bribe' or 'threaten' our way to success, but I think possibly expanding this to the point that it almost takes on a "mini-game context" isn't going to be for the best. I really don't want to be sitting in my hundred year war worried that i didn't send a box of chocolates to a possible match... or that I didn't contact her via crystal ball/courier/pigeon quick enough after our last visit. Adding a relationship micromanaging system will definitely be a turn off (for me at least).

I always remember something that Scott C said during one of the earlier Broken Age documentaries, but it applies to a lot of areas of creativity. Really early on, it's not very helpful to shut down possible roads of exploration because of being worried about where they might lead. This is exactly the right time to be saying "Well, what if [pretty much anything at all...]?" Because then when you do get to the point of starting to pin things down and make an actual game, you know you've been thorough in your initial exploration.

That's why it's cool to have the backers taking part in this stage, because it's very difficult to just be flat out wrong at the moment. They might not use your idea, but something you say might inspire something else, and so forth... but in the end, they're pro game designers and I trust them to move from this stage to something that will necessarily leave out a lot of what's being talked about.

I fully understand that :) I'm just making in known that at least for me, it's a road I'd not like to see them travel. It's valid feedback too :P

Ultimately, I fully expect DF to do what they feel is in their best interest (which will most likely also be geared to the community). By the same token, ultimately, it'll be up to me to make the decision on buying or not. This isn't to say that including something I dislike into game is a wrong design choice overall.. it's just wrong for me personally :) Even if I decide to pass on the game because it winds up with a significant relationship micromanagement system, I would still wish DF the best and hope people enjoy MC... I'll sit back and wait to see what next year might bring!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...