Bidiot Bales

♥ Steam Key Giveaway Thread! ♥

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People shouldn't feel stabbed in the back by the EA bundle. If anything, that reflects positively on EA (and god knows they're a public image fixer-upper). People were only upset about it because people have gotten into the habit of EA bashing so habitually that it's not even something they analyze anymore. Anything EA does is considered evil simply because EA did it. That bundle was just fine.

I was going to tweet some Steam keys myself; but then I remembered reading this Humble Bundle Support FAQ.

I don't know.... I don't think I see the moral problem of gifting away humble bundle games you already own. Let's be clear that I absolutely don't condone piracy and I think that pirating the Humble Bundle is about the absolute d!ckets d!ck move anyone could possibly do.

But if a friend of mine buys a title on Steam at a 75% mark down during a Steam sale and gifts it to me, that's not considered morally questionable.

But if they purchase a "package" during what is essentially a sort of sale, but they don't have any use for 1/5 of the package and choose to gift it away in a similar manner, and the package in question allows them to do that, then I don't quite see how that is an issue. If a customer purchases a product (or package of products) completely legitimately, why wouldn't they be free to do with that product (or package of products) the same sorts of things they are able to do with any other similar product they had legitimately purchased for the same platform (i.e. Steam)?

Or let's look at this scenario:

Suppose I already own the base games but don't own one of the "beat the average" games. There is no incentive for me to purchase this package unless I pay more than the average, which let's say is $5. Suppose the game is totally worth $5, but I decide that I don't want to spend $5 today. So I decide to pass on the bundle.

However, suppose that on second thought I STILL want to donate to the cause, even though I already own all of these games. So I chip in a $1 donation, even though I already own all the games. I'm only donating, but I still end up with a set of games I have no use for. Right?

I supported the cause even though I didn't need/want the incentives (i.e. games). So it stands to reason that makes me a GOOD person. Right? But now I have multiple copies of all these games that I legitimately purchased and have no use for. Giving gifts to people also makes you a nice person, right? And yet if I give any of them away as a gift, I'm being a terrible person? What?

I'm not going to take an absolute stance and say that HIB is wrong for being concerned, but the way the customers are behaving is a perfectly logical way to behave under the current system. And I don't think they're necessarily doing it to be all piratey and sneaky. They have extra games and they're just being generous. Is that the same as piracy? Is accepting a gift the same as piracy?

Or consider this: maybe I already own all of the games myself, so I otherwise wouldn't purchase the HIB, but I decide to purchase the HIB and beat the average, then I gift ALL OF THE GAMES to one of my friends.

Did I just do something terrible? Is my friend a pirate for accepting those games that I legitimately purchased?

I see how it looks a little bit weird from a distance maybe---especially considering the dual sale/charity nature of the HIB---but I don't think sharing HIB purchases makes the HIB customers terrible people, and the ability to gift might actually be SELLING MORE PACKAGES.

If they really have a problem with it, probably the best thing to do is to use a single steam key for the entire package. It's a shame that people should have to feel terrible about being nice to each other.

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allrighty

got keys from the HIB9 to give away

Mark of the Ninja

Brutal Legend

FTL: Faster Than Light

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@AnAnemoneInAnonymity

When you give away separate keys from a bundle, from a legal standpoint, you are basically the same as a pirate, because you are creating an unauthorized copy. From a moral standpoint, however, you are worse than a pirate, because you are also costing the companies resources.

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@AnAnemoneInAnonymity

When you give away separate keys from a bundle, from a legal standpoint, you are basically the same as a pirate, because you are creating an unauthorized copy. From a moral standpoint, however, you are worse than a pirate, because you are also costing the companies resources.

So the right thing to do is let the key rot so that no other person can enjoy the game? Whether or not you or someone else uses the key, the same amount of company resources are being used.

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So the right thing to do is let the key rot so that no other person can enjoy the game? Whether or not you or someone else uses the key, the same amount of company resources are being used.

You don't have the right to give that key away. And the recipient has to download the game, which does cost companies money. Something that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't created that copy by splitting the bundle.

Also, if a person pirates a game, they might still buy the game in the future. If they receive a Steam key, I highly doubt it.

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I don't see how that makes a difference considering that someone did indeed pay for it, just not the person using it. If I buy an extra copy of a disc game and give someone else the other disc then that is fine. I don't understand how this is any different at all, other than people think that digital distributed software should be as restrictive as possible. They might not pay for a game themselves if they get a steam key, but someone already did AND if they like it they are more likely to pay for the sequel or other games made by that dev team right away.

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If I buy an extra copy of a disc game and give someone else the other disc then that is fine.

If you buy an extra copy of a bundle and give to someone else then that is also fine.

But it's not okay to buy a bundle of games on a disc and give away copies of the ones you already have.

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Why not? If you pay for something, you should be able to do whatever you damn well want with it. And how does it use anymore company resources if someone else besides the person who bought the key uses it? If that person had used that key, it would use just as many resources as if he gave it to someone.

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Why not?

If for no other reason, because Humble Bundle asks you not to?

And how does it use anymore company resources if someone else besides the person who bought the key uses it? If that person had used that key, it would use just as many resources as if he gave it to someone.

If you had fully intended to use the key yourself, then it doesn't. I wonder how often people give away keys they want to use themselves, though.

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Sorry starker. I disagree with you on the moral point.

Here's an analogy for how I see it:

HOT DOG STAND #1

This hot dog stand offers to sell me a single hot dog for $3. But today they are having a 50% off sale, so I can buy one for $1.50.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy a hot dog for $1.50 and eat it.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy a hot dog for $1.50 and give it to a stranger.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy two hot dogs for $3. I eat one and give the other one to a stranger.

PIRACY: I sneak up to the hot dog stand, take a hot dog without paying for it. Whether I eat it or give it away doesn't matter. The fact that I didn't pay for it is what makes it piracy.

HOT DOG STAND #2

This hot dog stand offers to sell me a box of hot dogs containing five whole hot dogs, and I can pay whatever I want for them, as long as I pay for them. That's a sweet deal! I could get five hot dogs for a dollar!

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy a package of hot dogs for $1. That's the equivalent of buying all five hot dogs at twenty cents per hot dog. I bought each and every one of those hot dogs for twenty cents a piece. I eat all of them. Yum.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy a package of hot dogs for $1. That's the equivalent of buying all five hot dogs at twenty cents per hot dog. I bought each and every one of those hot dogs for twenty cents a piece. I give all of them to a stranger. The stranger is pleased.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: I buy a package of hot dogs for $1. That's the equivalent of buying all five hot dogs at twenty cents per hot dog. I bought each and every one of those hot dogs for twenty cents a piece. I eat four of them and decide that I'm full. I have one hot dog left, so I give it to a person standing nearby as a free gift. After all, I did not steal the hot dog from the cart, but I purchased it legitimately for twenty cents. Having purchased it for twenty cents, it is mine to give away for free if I feel like it. So I do.

PIRACY: I sneak up to the hot dog stand, take a package of five hot dogs without paying anything. Whether I eat the hot dogs or give them away (or eat some of them and give some of them away) doesn't matter. The fact that none of them were paid for is what makes it piracy.

WHAT YOU'RE SAYING

You're saying that if hot dog stand #2 is selling a package of five hot dogs and I get to name my price, and I choose to buy them all at a dollar, which REALLY means that I am purchasing them for twenty cents per hot dog, that if I then give away a hot dog that I purchased for twenty cents, that it is the same as stealing that hot dog from the cart.

Sorry, and no disrespect, but I think that's bullsh!t.

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Digital games are not hot dogs, though. Game licenses are not transferable "second-hand".

At the very least you are betraying the seller's trust who apparently very explicitly asks you not to split the bundles.

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Digital games are not hot dogs, though. Game licenses are not transferable "second-hand".

At the very least you are betraying the sellers trust who apparently very explicitly asks you not to split the bundles.

If they really wanted to stop key sharing then the bundles would be packaged to a single key like they used to.

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If they really wanted to stop key sharing then the bundles would be packaged to a single key like they used to.

So, you know better what they really want?

Here's the rationalisation video again:

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Digital games are not hot dogs, though. Game licenses are not transferable "second-hand".

At the very least you are betraying the seller's trust who apparently very explicitly asks you not to split the bundles.

They are only not transferable second hand because somebody found a loophole in our ownership laws and exploited it. Germany does it right though, seriously we need to get a system in place for selling and trading of digital goods like that.

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So, you know better what they really want?

Here's the rationalisation video again:

I can't say I do, and truthfully neither can you.

The fact is that since the bundles have started and gotten more and more popular they have made it easier for people to share keys that they aren't gonna use. Thems the facts.

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I can't say I do, and truthfully neither can you.

So it seems we have to take them at their word and the word is that they don't want the bundles to be split.

Also, there could be other reasons for why the bundles are not a single key. Perhaps it's not as easy to do with different developers?

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This hot dog stand offers to sell me a box of hot dogs containing five whole hot dogs, and I can pay whatever I want for them, as long as I pay for them. That's a sweet deal! I could get five hot dogs for a dollar!

ok, if we're going to do this hot dog analogy, here's your problem. the hot dog stand guy is putting a condition on this. he's saying "normally you would have to pay full price for all these hot dogs, but if you promise to eat them only by yourself i will give you a special discount on them." you then agree to this and buy his hot dogs and after he hands them to you your friend crawls out of the bushes and you hand him a hot dog while staring down the hot dog stand guy with a big smug grin. now is this wrong? no, you didn't sign a binding contract and you can do whatever you want with your hot dogs. it is slightly douchey though considering the good faith offer the hot dog guy originally made you.

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Digital games are not hot dogs, though. Game licenses are not transferable "second-hand".

At the very least you are betraying the seller's trust who apparently very explicitly asks you not to split the bundles.

But the way it appears to work is that HIB doesn't give out licenses. They give out keys. And when they keys are used, the game becomes associated with that person's account, licensing it to them.

So all we have to do is add an intermediary step to the hot dog scenario.

Suppose that it is not possible to buy a hot dog directly with money. In order to get a hot dog, you must give the hot dog vendor a voucher for 1 hot dog. When the hot dog vendor gives you your hot dog, he writes your name on the package so that it is clearly yours and nobody else has the right to eat it. In order to get a voucher to get a hot dog, you must go to the voucher office and buy one.

Today the voucher office is selling five vouchers for a price of your choosing. You buy 5 vouchers for $1. That's twenty cents per voucher.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: You use all five vouchers. The vendor writes your name on all five hot dogs.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: You buy five vouchers, but give them to someone else to turn in. What difference does it make to the vendor? Someone bought the vouchers, didn't they? He writes their name on all five hot dogs.

LEGITIMATE PURCHASE: You buy five vouchers. You use three and your friend uses two. What difference does it make to the vendor? Someone purchased the vouchers, didn't they? He writes your names on your respective hot dogs.

PIRACY: Someone takes a hotdog from the cart without using a voucher.

PIRACY: Someone takes a hotdog from the cart by using a fake or stolen voucher.

Remember when you would buy physical games in the store, but in order to play the game, you would have to type in a key to access it, and once you used the key, it became unuseable to anyone else? What's to stop me from going to the store and buying five games (i.e. five keys), using three of the keys on MY computer at my house, and using two of the keys on my FRIEND'S computer at his house? I still purchased all five keys. But two of them became licensed to my friend when I gave the keys to him. Does this make my friend a pirate?

Or look at it in terms of gift cards. Suppose I purchase a gift card for my friend--oh, let's call him Joe. I purchase Joe a gift card worth $50. The cashier hands me the $50 card and writes the name "Joe" on the recipient line. But then I decide, you know what? I think I'll give it to Jimmy instead. I give the card to Jimmy and he uses it, even though it was purchased for Joe. So what? The retailer still made $50 no matter who cashes in the voucher. What happens in the intermediary steps is irrelevant.

If they want it to be licensed to the purchaser AT THE VERY MOMENT of purchase and unusable by any other person, then they need to find a way to associate those keys with the account at the moment of purchase. In the past they solved this problem by using a single key for all the products so it was impossible to gift the keys to other people. Now they are selling you individual keys and asking pretty please don't share them for some reason (even giving away a purchased key has historically been possible with even keys on physical games, so there is literally no reason why they should have a problem with that). Or what would be even BETTER, is if they made it possible to make split purchases where you buy all the games, but you can check a box on the first three to indicate "purchase for myself" and tick a box on the last two for "purchase as a gift", per the Steam vernacular.

It's not enough that you say to me "because they asked you not to". I will agree to not share any Steam keys and not to use any Steam keys that are gifted to me if you can show me that giving another person a key that I purchased is an illegal act for either party. To my knowledge, this does not constitute stealing from the creator/retailer, does them no harm, and has never been illegal.

I want to go on record as saying that I am honestly not trying to be a d!ck and I love the HIB and would never do anything that I believed would seriously harm that cause. It's just that I don't think that purchasing a software key (be it physical or digital), then abstaining from using that key and instead handing it off to a friend (or even a stranger for that matter) has ever been illegal, nor is it harming the creator/vendor. I purchased it. Whoever cashes in that key for a license is cashing in a purchased key. What happened in the intermediary steps is irrelevant.

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This hot dog stand offers to sell me a box of hot dogs containing five whole hot dogs, and I can pay whatever I want for them, as long as I pay for them. That's a sweet deal! I could get five hot dogs for a dollar!

ok, if we're going to do this hot dog analogy, here's your problem. the hot dog stand guy is putting a condition on this. he's saying "normally you would have to pay full price for all these hot dogs, but if you promise to eat them only by yourself i will give you a special discount on them." you then agree to this and buy his hot dogs and after he hands them to you your friend crawls out of the bushes and you hand him a hot dog while staring down the hot dog stand guy with a big smug grin. now is this wrong? no, you didn't sign a binding contract and you can do whatever you want with your hot dogs. it is slightly douchey though considering the good faith offer the hot dog guy originally made you.

That makes WAY more sense than trying to argue that it is some kind of piracy. That argument I would take.

But there still really isn't anything about the HIB site that indicates this is that kind of good faith offer. All that it says is that you are purchasing a bundle of games for a price of your choice. None of that conditional language is there. If it really means that much to them, why is it buried?

To be clear, I'm not saying "It's not visible on the main page, so I don't have to respect it." I'm saying, it's not visible on the main page, so probably a lot of people aren't going to realize it's even a condition, good faith or otherwise. They present it as just a regular old purchase.

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This hot dog stand offers to sell me a box of hot dogs containing five whole hot dogs, and I can pay whatever I want for them, as long as I pay for them. That's a sweet deal! I could get five hot dogs for a dollar!

ok, if we're going to do this hot dog analogy, here's your problem. the hot dog stand guy is putting a condition on this. he's saying "normally you would have to pay full price for all these hot dogs, but if you promise to eat them only by yourself i will give you a special discount on them." you then agree to this and buy his hot dogs and after he hands them to you your friend crawls out of the bushes and you hand him a hot dog while staring down the hot dog stand guy with a big smug grin. now is this wrong? no, you didn't sign a binding contract and you can do whatever you want with your hot dogs. it is slightly douchey though considering the good faith offer the hot dog guy originally made you.

That makes WAY more sense than trying to argue that it is some kind of piracy. That argument I would take.

But there still really isn't anything about the HIB site that indicates this is that kind of good faith offer. All that it says is that you are purchasing a bundle of games for a price of your choice. None of that conditional language is there. If it really means that much to them, why is it buried?

To be clear, I'm not saying "It's not visible on the main page, so I don't have to respect it." I'm saying, it's not visible on the main page, so probably a lot of people aren't going to realize it's even a condition, good faith or otherwise. They present it as just a regular old purchase.

That's a good question. There is some small print on the main page and that seems like an obvious place to say "for personal use only" as opposed to burying it deep in the Terms of Service like they do. It kind of leads me to think that they don't really care if you're sharing keys and they only say you shouldn't for some legal reason, so that's why I'm not up in arms like Starker.

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If anyone happens to have a key for Amnesia A Machine For Pigs my PM box is patiently waiting :P

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Warrior wants some pig machine shoved up his steamy hole.

:ahhh:

:red:

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That's a good question. There is some small print on the main page and that seems like an obvious place to say "for personal use only" as opposed to burying it deep in the Terms of Service like they do. It kind of leads me to think that they don't really care if you're sharing keys and they only say you shouldn't for some legal reason, so that's why I'm not up in arms like Starker.

Kind of like those smoking shops on college campuses that have "for tobacco use only" signs hanging everywhere.

3pt6nb.jpg

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Warrior wants some pig machine shoved up his steamy hole.
I see you haven't lost your sense of humor 2w4i978jpg.gif

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Warrior wants some pig machine shoved up his steamy hole.
I see you haven't lost your sense of humor 2w4i978jpg.gif

I see you haven't lost those irritating gifs yet

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I figure that if Humble Bundle really wanted to make sure you didn't get spare keys for games you already own, they could require you to login through Steam Open Id before requesting keys. That way they could just give you keys for games you don't have. It's not fool proof but it's easy to implement and would do more in the way of discouraging people from giving away keys.

Another thing is, if Steam or Humble Bundle really had a problem with key sharing, why don't they go after steamgifts.com or even discourage key giveaways on the Steam forums?

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Asking nicely doesn't upset anyone.

Cracking down might.

Humble Bundle thrives based at least in part due to their image as something consumer-friendly. Going after people who bought the bundle, even to enforce their own rules, isn't worth the PR hassle.

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