Bidiot Bales

♥ Steam Key Giveaway Thread! ♥

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Another thing is, if Steam or Humble Bundle really had a problem with key sharing, why don't they go after steamgifts.com or even discourage key giveaways on the Steam forums?

Exactly my thoughts

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The main reason they discourage key-sharing is because people can get both DRM-free (usually) and Steam keys, give away the steam keys and keep the DRM-free version for themselves.

A rule I have is that every time someone gifts me a key I add a dollar onto the next HB purchase I make, evening it out.

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If I get some bonus game keys when I purchase something else, like when I got a Civ V key for buying XCOM, I would gladly give it away in threads like this. But for Humble Bundles, especially a great bundle like the current one, I would encourage people just to buy it. Is there anyone here who actually can't afford $4.59 for 6 brilliant games? It's a steal even if you feel that you only want one or two of them.

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It's not enough that you say to me "because they asked you not to". I will agree to not share any Steam keys and not to use any Steam keys that are gifted to me if you can show me that giving another person a key that I purchased is an illegal act for either party. To my knowledge, this does not constitute stealing from the creator/retailer, does them no harm, and has never been illegal.

These keys are meant for your personal use. The fact that they don't state it clearly on the front page or the purchase page does not change that. When you get a DRM free download, a Steam key, and a Desura key, you don't in fact purchase three copies of the game that you are free to give away as you please. When you give away one of those keys, you are essentially creating an unauthorised copy and violating Humble Bundle's TOS:

This Agreement, and any rights and licenses granted hereunder, may not be transferred or assigned by you, but may be assigned by Humble Bundle without restriction. Any attempted transfer or assignment in violation hereof shall be null and void.

I've been guilty of giving away keys in the past as well, but from now on I will gift whole bundles only.

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There isn't much dumping happening in this Steam Key Dumping Thread, right? I enjoy the imagination how everyone is sitting on their almost priceless and rare Steam keys. I might give one to you, but only if you're left handed and posted at least twelve times in some obscure Kinect Party sub thread. You might also have to get my avatar tattooed on the belly of your firstborn and i want a video for proof. ...

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There isn't much dumping happening in this Steam Key Dumping Thread, right? I enjoy the imagination how everyone is sitting on their almost priceless and rare Steam keys. I might give one to you, but only if you're left handed and posted at least twelve times in some obscure Kinect Party sub thread. You might also have to get my avatar tattooed on the belly of your firstborn and i want a video for proof. ...

You want some keys? ;)

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Actually i would take a The Cave DLC key. :o)

Let me know when they make some DLC for it and I will fix a key for you. ;)

(No, I don't count the soundtrack as DLC :P )

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The thing about Steam keys from Humble Bundles is you often see the developers of the games themselves Retweet extra keys etc

No one is really sure what you are supposed to do with left over ones...

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I think it feels okay if people give them away if they don't utalise them as a replicator, like, it's okay if they own a game already or don't play it on any distribution platform. It's not okay if they for instance own a game only once, play the HIB version and in parallel give the Steam key away (to some degree you might want to interpret this as advertisement and bringing more people to Steam). The legal basis seems to be different though.

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It's not enough that you say to me "because they asked you not to". I will agree to not share any Steam keys and not to use any Steam keys that are gifted to me if you can show me that giving another person a key that I purchased is an illegal act for either party. To my knowledge, this does not constitute stealing from the creator/retailer, does them no harm, and has never been illegal.

These keys are meant for your personal use. The fact that they don't state it clearly on the front page or the purchase page does not change that. When you get a DRM free download, a Steam key, and a Desura key, you don't in fact purchase three copies of the game that you are free to give away as you please. When you give away one of those keys, you are essentially creating an unauthorised copy and violating Humble Bundle's TOS:

This Agreement, and any rights and licenses granted hereunder, may not be transferred or assigned by you, but may be assigned by Humble Bundle without restriction. Any attempted transfer or assignment in violation hereof shall be null and void.

The part that you quoted doesn't seem to be addressing the user's rights as far as how they use the products. The part you quoted seems to be addressing who has the power to enter users into the contract (i.e. only HIB can enter people into HIB's contract).

This part would have been a more ideal quote:

(xiii) except as otherwise specifically set forth in a licensor’s end user license agreement, as otherwise agreed upon by a licensor in writing or as otherwise allowed under applicable law, distributing, transmitting, copying (other than re-installing software or files previously purchased by you through the Service on computers, mobile or tablet devices owned by your, or creating backup copies of such software or files for your own personal use) or otherwise exploiting the Products (defined below) in any manner other than for your own private, non-commercial, personal use.

But even here it sounds more like they are trying to keep people from sharing the keys commercially, which is understandable. For example, what they don't want you to do is to go into HIB and buy five games for a dollar (i.e. twenty cents each), wait until the HIB sale is over, then sell your unused keys at a price higher than what you paid but lower than the current steam price, thereby making a profit.

But gifting them? I doubt that's nearly as frowned upon.

The problem is that it's really difficult to enforce. If I were to sell my friend Joe a steam key I bought for twenty cents at a price point of $5 (when the current steam price is $10), then I would make a profit. Joe would hand me a $5 bill. And I'd give him the key. But that money isn't traceable to HIB. On paper, it's not really distinguishable from me just giving him the key as a gift.

So probably HIB is just saying this to cover all their bases and give them as much discretion as possible when dealing with people they have decided are abusing the site. It's not 100% clear if they are actually against people sharing the keys or if it is only a hook they place in their TOS to catch key scalpers and the like.

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It's not 100% clear if they are actually against people sharing the keys or if it is only a hook they place in their TOS to catch key scalpers and the like.

Um... it is 100% clear that they don't want you to do that.

If I already have a game(s) in the bundle do I have the ability to gift the extra copy in the bundle?

Unfortunately, if you already have a game in the bundle you will not be able to gift the extra games to a friend.

Please consider your bundle a "unit", and not to share copies of the games or Steam keys from it.

If you'd like to give a copy of the games away, we have a system in place that allows you to buy a gift key from www.humblebundle.com so your friends can have access to direct downloads as well as any Steam or other keys we have included.

And..

Can I sell/give away my keys?

Each purchase is intended for use by one individual. Please read our Terms of Service.

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Interesting but i wonder why they changed from bundled to separate keys then.

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Interesting but i wonder why they changed from bundled to separate keys then.

starker theorized a few pages back that it's somehow more difficult to arrange a package with different developers, but i don't really buy that since it seemed to work very well for them for a while. steam sells packages of indie games all the time so it makes no sense for it to be something that's difficult to set up.

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Warrior wants some pig machine shoved up his steamy hole.
I see you haven't lost your sense of humor 2w4i978jpg.gif

I see you haven't lost those irritating gifs yet

And I never will

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Um... it is 100% clear that they don't want you to do that.

Sorry. I was talking specifically about the TOS language, and I was drawing a distinction between what a company puts in their TOS and what their actual interest is, because there is a difference. It's on-the-record versus off-the-record sort of thing. For example, if some company were to essentially write in their TOS that you can't use the service in any way that the company considers unacceptable use, such as [specific examples here] or anything else not specifically described here that the service provider for whatever reason finds unacceptable, then they can terminate your service as they see fit, what they are essentially doing is casting a very wide net and giving themselves as much room to act on their own discretion/self-interest as possible, giving themselves a lot of room to protect themselves not only from user abuse but from legal action from third parties (i.e. the game devs/pubs in this case) without someone trying to sue them for looking out for themselves.

It's possible, for example, that the only reason they tell you in the TOS not to do that with your keys is so that a third party (e.g. a game dev/pub or Steam) can't sue them, but off-the-record they don't actually care.

Many companies word their TOS in such a way that it's ultimately up to them whether they consider X to be a violation or not. Is a purchased key given as a gift an illegal copy? It sounds like that's ultimately up to HIB to decide. Based on just their FAQ, a person could only conclude that they consider it unauthorized use. Based on the language and format of the site/service outside the TOS and the otherwise apparent lack of concern over key trading (which has been going on for years), it would seem like they don't really care.

The very fact that we are having this debate means AT THE VERY LEAST they need to be more clear on this point. Despite the fact that this is what the combined wording of their FAQ/TOS seem to say, it still doesn't make any sense from the consumer's point of view. It doesn't change the fact that if I buy a physical key from a store and give it to someone, that's excusable. But if I buy the key from HIB and do the same thing, for some reason they have chosen to define that as a violation and some people defending HIB consider it to be somehow morally bankrupt. But why? (Philosophy 101: Is the pious loved by HIB because it is pious? Or is it pious because it is loved by HIB?)

I honestly never would have expected that they would consider that a violation, because it doesn't make any f***ing sense. I would appreciate it if they would explain that.

When you criminalize something that people would not normally expect to be criminalized (even a DF employee whose company is participating in this very bundle just said he was going to share some keys until he saw the TOS), then you should probably explain yourself. What gives? And you should probably do it in a way that people will actually hear you.

They made separate keys because people demanded them so they [del]can gift their spare games[/del] don't have to register games on their Steam they don't want.

Perhaps. Or they could just give out one key and tell the people not to install the games they don't want. Uninstalled games don't take up space on the user's hardrive, and Steam has an option to hide uninstalled games in the library. There is no reason that HIB should need to overhaul their entire service and make it a legal quagmire just because some Steam users are too lazy to click on a dropdown menu.

TL;DR

The current status of this argument is that I concede that HIB appears to consider it unauthorized use of the keys per the TOS/FAQ. They are at least ON THE RECORD saying that. Off the record, I'm not so sure.

My continued gripes are:

1) Then why aren't they cracking down more, communicating more, or revising their method of key distribution? (There is a possibility they don't care despite what the TOS/FAQ say.)

2) Their defining this as unauthorized use doesn't making any sense. It's like the Best Buy clerk telling me I'm not authorized by Best Buy to give a DVD as a Christmas present unless I specifically tell Best Buy on a signed document that it is being purchased as a Christmas present. Well... okay. I guess Best Buy could refuse to let me back in the store if they find out I gave a legitimately purchased DVD that I didn't specify as a gift to a friend, but that's still f***ing weird.

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I think there's one misconception that many people are having -- that the steam keys are licenses or carry licenses with them. They in fact do not. You do not have the ability to transfer or create a license. Only the creator/rights owner does (as well as a store on the creator's behalf). And without a license, the copy that is redeemed with such a key is essentially an unlicensed copy, not really any different from stuff you can find on torrent sites.

Also, comparisons with physical items are not really relevant as there is a substantial difference between physical and digital items.

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yeah i think everybody is tired of this debate. if you guys want to continue it why not use another thread or private messages

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No, I actually find it very interesting.

yeah that's why i suggested using another thread

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It's probably a bit late for that now that so much of that discussion is in this thread anyway. I think it would make more sense with a separate thread if it had been made earlier in the discussion or if a mod moved the relevant posts to a new thread. That's probably not going to happen though, and I think there's a limit to how much more there really is to discuss unless some new evidence is presented. An unofficial statement from Humble Bundle would be cool, but it would probably just be the same generic line from the TOS.

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But a TOS on digital sale is a grey area of sales contracts. Some clauses can't be upheld by law.

I buy a Steam Key anywhere. whether it's Greenmangaming, Amazon, or Humble Bundle and whatnot. They have no say nor control in whoever's account said key gets activated on.

Still have these keys to give away

Mark of the Ninja

FTL: Faster Than Light

System Shock 2

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The new title is a bit confusing: "Steam Key+Humble Bundle TOS Complaint Thread"

To me it looks like it's all complaints. Maybe "giveaway" should be added after "Steam key"?

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But a TOS on digital sale is a grey area of sales contracts. Some clauses can't be upheld by law.

I buy a Steam Key anywhere. whether it's Greenmangaming, Amazon, or Humble Bundle and whatnot. They have no say nor control in whoever's account said key gets activated on.

Still have these keys to give away

Mark of the Ninja

FTL: Faster Than Light

System Shock 2

hey homie can i have the system shock 2 key

i gots these keys if anyone wants them and has no moral compunctions:

edit: gone

i have bought brutal legend 3 times on xbox, ps3 and pc so i am not going to feel any guilt over giving away a key for it.

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So let's say that Broken Age launches and they give you a Steam key and a link to a DRM free download, would you think it's okay to give the Steam key away? Would you think that they secretly want you to give the Steam keys away if they don't come down hard on the people who gift the keys?

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i would use the steam key for myself, but i spent $100 on broken age so i sure as hell wouldn't have a problem giving away an extra copy, no.

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I've got a bunch of vouchers for 20%-25% off various Train Simulator things if anyone's interested. I also have vouchers for Toki Tori 2, Foul Play and Volgarr the Viking.

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