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15 minutes ago, Noname215 said:

I'm playing on Xbox One. I wonder if they switched engines because there's a lot less hiccups compared to their other stuff.

Anyway, I'm biased because I'm a Batman fan, so I like it.

It's a new engine I think.  I knew one was coming anyway.  So I'm pretty sure.

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Anyway, I like it so far. Has the tone nailed. But again, little to no actual control aside from dialogue branches.

Oh, and don't shake Carmine Falcone's hand or give evidence to Vicki Vale.

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Thanks for that. Good read. However, it completely left out how they hijacked the adventure community to build themselves a pedestal so they could abandon them at the earliest opportunity for dollar signs.

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2 hours ago, MusicallyInspired said:

Thanks for that. Good read. However, it completely left out how they hijacked the adventure community to build themselves a pedestal so they could abandon them at the earliest opportunity for dollar signs.

It doesn't say that explicitly, but I feel like it's kind of implied. xD

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As you guys might have heard, Telltale did a three episode DLC for Minecraft on top of the five Episode Season.

However, on top of that, they seem to strongly be hinting at a second Season to come on top of the first Season and its three episode DLC. Lots of references are being made to "Season 1" of Minecraft only as of lately from Telltale, and the final episode of the DLC is titled "A Journey's End?" - if you go on the game's site and read the episode description, it says this:

https://telltale.com/series/minecraft-story-mode---adventure-pass/

A Journeys End?

"The brilliant conclusion to Telltale's three episode Adventure Pass! Of course, there's that question mark..."

It seems that they are strongly hinting that another Season of Minecraft will eventually come down the line.

Edited by Blind Sniper

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Maybe eventually they'll go back to their roots once the whole interactive movie thing finally crashes and burns

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31 minutes ago, Noname215 said:

Maybe eventually they'll go back to their roots once the whole interactive movie thing finally crashes and burns

It's only going further away(sort of).  While Batman has had more actual gameplay than Jurassic Park, the QTE have become more meaningless.  In a QTE sequence, as long as you hit the very last one, there's no punishment.  It's sad.

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1 hour ago, Noname215 said:

Maybe eventually they'll go back to their roots once the whole interactive movie thing finally crashes and burns

It probably isn't going to crash and burn. As others have pointed out, Telltale essentially makes visual novels now, and if Steam is any indication, the visual novel genre has a pretty solid market. (But I am tremendously thankful I can now filter visual novel recs from my rec queue. Steam is flooded with them.)

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2 hours ago, Noname215 said:

Maybe eventually they'll go back to their roots once the whole interactive movie thing finally crashes and burns

Too little too late. Never going back. I didn't even really like their roots very much. Too easy. I just always assumed they would start off easy and get more complex as they brought in more fans. The opposite happened.

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27 minutes ago, MusicallyInspired said:

Too little too late. Never going back. I didn't even really like their roots very much. Too easy. I just always assumed they would start off easy and get more complex as they brought in more fans. The opposite happened.

I kinda have to disagree. There was definitely a lot of challenge to be had in the Sam & Max games as well as Tales Of Monkey Island, which is still my favorite game of theirs.

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To my knowledge, a lot (if not all?) of people that made Telltale what it was in the early days aren't there anymore. Old Telltale is effectively dead and gone, I don't think anything can bring it back.

I'd love to see more Sam & Max, but I'd rather not see what Telltale would do with it at this point. At least Steve Purcell still has full ownership of it and can license it out as he pleases.

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Among the executives, I do believe that only Kevin is left.  There are other people still around, but not with any form of creative control.  Unless you want to count Jared.  A bit surprising he's still around considering the severe tone shift the games took.  Good thing he has range I guess.

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2 hours ago, Noname215 said:

I kinda have to disagree. There was definitely a lot of challenge to be had in the Sam & Max games as well as Tales Of Monkey Island, which is still my favorite game of theirs.

Have you ever played a Sierra game?

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5 hours ago, MusicallyInspired said:

Have you ever played a Sierra game?

I've played the Leisure Suit Larry remastered edition. Don't know if that counts.

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I kinda got tired of the Sam & Max TT games after the first season. While they managed to bring back all that was good about classic adventure games, they also sorta brought back some of the inane logic that was bad about those old adventure games. (Though I'm sure the more hardcore types love that as much as the good stuff.) But also the writing and humor just became very formulaic. It was just hours of

*click on thing*
*Sam makes observation*
*Max says something CraAaAazy!*

I had all the seasons but I just couldn't finish them. Maybe if there weren't so much else to play.

I mean, I guess I see why they have shifted their focus to whatever you want to call what they're doing now. The classic adventure game thing they were doing before was the right thing for that niche audience, but it has no popular appeal. Maybe the original crew were just fine with going for that classic audience but the new crew wants to actually have some popular appeal.

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I was actually going to bring up the inane logic topic when Sierra was mentioned.  While parts of the early Telltale games were a little too easy, I don't consider bizarre logic puzzles to be part of the degree of difficulty in a game.  They're just annoying unless the situation is purposely comical.  I don't recall the exact puzzle situation, but the "microwave" solution in S&M1 was really the only ridiculous solution I remember and I wasn't amused or proud for figuring it out.  I think I just rolled my eyes.  

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I think it was the Abraham Lincoln episode where I realized I had reached a point where I was just blindly trying every object with every other object to see what would work. That was when I thought, yup, it is definitely a classic adventure game, in the best AND worst way.

Edited by AnAnemoneInAnonymity

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I believe there are very few actual "moon logic" puzzles in Sierra games. They just provided more of a challenge. People claimed that you had to guess what the developer was thinking just weren't immersed enough in or observant of the game world. Everything made sense. Except for the cheese puzzle, that is messed up. But I wouldn't say that was as hard as people say either.

Everything in S&M was straight forward. Anyone claiming it was as challenging as a Sierra game, I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. All of them were rooms full of self contained puzzles that were not very complex. Maybe one or two stretched over a couple areas, but in those cases nothing was difficult. TMI was their best effort and it too didn't measure up either. I beat BTTF in two days. TT games are just bad overall. Their stories are where they shine, unfortunately for them that's not why I play games.

I don't remember a microwave puzzle in HTR...

Edited by MusicallyInspired

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I take issue with the very idea of rating puzzles as "hard" or "easy" based on their level of absurd logic. This is not a scale that they should be using at all. If there is any absurd logic, whether it is only kinda a little absurd or whether it is REALLY absurd, it doesn't matter, it just shouldn't be like that. Listening to two adventure games argue about which one of them is harder on account of which one has the craziest logic is like listening to two frat bros bragging to each other about who is the most drunk. It's a sad conversation to witness.

And I don't necessarily give free excuses to "well it makes narrative sense" because basically anything can make narrative sense in a cartoony/comedy world. Talking about what makes narrative sense in the world of Who Framed Roger Rabbit doesn't mean much. And I don't think the feeling that a "puzzle" is absurd necessarily results from the logic of the puzzle feeling inconsistent with the narrative. It is just a result of the puzzle's structure. Often it is the result of adventure games trying to simulate (or emulate) lateral thinking and doing a bad job of it, because structurally they are not well-suited for the job.

I remembered the point I stopped playing Sam & Max was Reality 2.0. (Though I did finish the episode.) I just now googled a walkthrough to try and remember what I disliked about it. Here are some choice excerpts of classic adventure gaming terribleness (which hardcore adventure game lovers probably consider awesomeness):

Quote

You need something to shut down the Internet and Reality 2.0. Can you think of anything back in the real world that might do that? You did talk to Bosco before crossing worlds, right? If you've played these games, you know that you always have to buy whatever weapon he's selling. He's selling a biological weapon in the real world. Which would be akin to a computer virus in Reality 2.0.

 

Oh. Would it? Okay. #adventuregamelogic

Quote

Now that you've gotten the sword, you can complain to Bosco about how crappy
it is.

And, knock Bosco back into the real world.


Oh, in order to get Bosco to log off, I had to buy a sword. That makes sense. #adventuregamelogic

Oh god, and this whole string of "logic"

Quote

So, it's time to spread that virus to the Internet. Just defeat the anti-virus software, and stick it in the mailbox. Easier said than done. Obviously, you need a better weapon. A better weapon is in plain sight, just above Sybil's. But it's stuck. You need something slimy to free it. Like, a slime? Noticed anything slimy in Reality 2.0? At Bosco's? In the Sludgie Machine? Use the machine to create a slime, and whack it with the long sword. Use the slime to get the sword, and you're set. But, you still need better defense. Notice anything you could use to protect yourself? Nothing pops up for you? Remember on your first trip to the Control Room, the pop-up generating Jack in the Box? Remember when you were fiddling around with the four control computers? The Pong-like machine turns the pop-ups on and off. Turn them off to pick it up, then turn them back on to use them. So, to fight the anti-virus, use the jack in the box for defense, and the +2 sword to attack. Mail the virus, and win!

 

I can't stand these kinds of puzzles anymore, honestly. I played them back in the day because that's what I had, but these days I find them mostly annoying. I think the problem is when adventure games try to simulate lateral thinking, BUT THEY FUNDAMENTALLY CAN'T DO LATERAL THINKING, but they try and force you along their thought train anyway.

This is why I prefer adventure games that have a more Myst/Riven type of approach, where the puzzles aren't "adventure game puzzles" but are actually just literal puzzles in front of your face, on a single screen, that you solve right there. (Puzzle Agent is another good example, though I dislike those games' penchant for confusing "puzzle" with "math test question".)

I don't mean to just knock on Sam & Max, because there were some puzzles in those games that I thought were pretty good ones as well. So for example, the puzzle in Reality 2.0 where you have to bypass the firewall using the correct sequence of paint on your car. Now I consider that a puzzle. But all of this "in order to create a fake mustache just tape some cat hair to your face" type of rigamarole I am completely done with. I have no patience for that stuff anymore.

 

Edited by AnAnemoneInAnonymity

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Say about Telltale what you will, but at least they have steady DRM free releases right now and don't let their distribution be fucked up by an American cable network. B|

Edited by Vainamoinen

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3 hours ago, AnAnemoneInAnonymity said:

I take issue with the very idea of rating puzzles as "hard" or "easy" based on their level of absurd logic. This is not a scale that they should be using at all. If there is any absurd logic, whether it is only kinda a little absurd or whether it is REALLY absurd, it doesn't matter, it just shouldn't be like that. Listening to two adventure games argue about which one of them is harder on account of which one has the craziest logic is like listening to two frat bros bragging to each other about who is the most drunk. It's a sad conversation to witness.

I didn't say hard, I said challenging. I also don't agree with the notion that "absurd logic" = "hard" because I don't agree that most of what people label "absurd logic" is actually absurd. Whatever anyone says, I love getting my mind into that mode and solving puzzles after weeks of coming at it from different angles. If you're throwing your hands up and resorting to rubbing every X on every Y you're doing it wrong and you shouldn't be playing them anyway. My personal opinion.

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16 hours ago, MusicallyInspired said:

If you're throwing your hands up and resorting to rubbing every X on every Y you're doing it wrong and you shouldn't be playing them anyway. My personal opinion.

Well, there is a certain principle in the tech world you have to remember:

Yes, sometimes the user is just stupid. But also sometimes the user experience you've created just blows. (Sometimes people create bad user experience, but instead of admitting it's bad, they just continue insisting it is the users who are at fault. They are "too dumb" whereas my design is "just fine". But it isn't.)

You and I could split hairs all day over which of these two is more like what is happening in any given adventure game puzzle, but let's just agree we may have somewhat different feelings on the subject. ;-)

Edited by AnAnemoneInAnonymity

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I believe I did just that when I said "my personal opinion."

I've had this idea for a couple years now to start a YouTube series or Twitch stream series called "Moon Logic?" or something and go through adventure games that I've never played or beaten before that are heralded as impossible in an attempt to prove whether or not they are. I'd go through each game completely without walkthrough or hints no matter how long it takes me and give my verdict at the end. Put my money where my mouth is. Still want to do that sometime.

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45 minutes ago, MusicallyInspired said:

I believe I did just that when I said "my personal opinion."

I've had this idea for a couple years now to start a YouTube series or Twitch stream series called "Moon Logic?" or something and go through adventure games that I've never played or beaten before that are heralded as impossible in an attempt to prove whether or not they are. I'd go through each game completely without walkthrough or hints no matter how long it takes me and give my verdict at the end. Put my money where my mouth is. Still want to do that sometime.

Go for it, that sounds pretty cool. I personally like the absurdness of the puzzles in adventure games.

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On 8/14/2016 at 2:28 PM, Vainamoinen said:

Say about Telltale what you will, but at least they have steady DRM free releases right now and don't let their distribution be fucked up by an American cable network. B|

And they definitely could be, what with them releasing games based on licenses from HBO.  I, too, am happy to see them release their latest games on GOG.com consistently now (I grabbed all of their games on GOG.com despite getting them on Steam, to help support the idea of DRM free releases of their games).

Of course, Telltale's now big enough that they can pretty much make their own terms in deals, something that Double Fine can't do (and honestly, I hope they never do become that big as I've never seen a gaming company grow huge while still retaining their close relationships with fans).

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