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Darth Marsden

Greetings from the Telltale Games forums!

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Are you people still here.
That's not a question?

Use proper punctuation next time;

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Wow Darth Marsden that was interesting. I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I've met Kevin and he is actually a really nice guy. I did the savesamandmax.com site and he actually ordered one of the "Max Lives" t-shirts a fan had designed and wore it into LucasArts after they'd all been told they were fired. When they first created Moderators for the Telltale site I was the first person they thought of. I was the first mod of the forums, I was also one of the first members of the Telltale forum. When they changed the forums recently I was removed as a moderator and no one even told me or told me why. I guess that shows how no one really knows their history over there. I was always looking at the Sam & Max forums and there was nothing really to moderate because it seems they've abandoned that series too. If Jake still worked at Telltale I know that would never have happened. Anyway I'm glad I got to visit Telltale and meet Jake, Doug & Emily. I'm glad i got to meet Dan & Kevin. I'm glad I organised those gift baskets for telltale workers after each sam & max season. I'm glad I was there when Telltale was good.. but these days I just have no love for what they are doing..they have abandoned their history for no real good reason and shunned all the old school fans. It's a real shame.

Speaking of the savesamandmax.com site...

...should we try to bring it back?

It would be a little silly, considering they just appeared in Poker Night 2 this year.

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Oh, Hero1? I didn't realize that was you!

I also got to meet Kevin in person, last year at PAX Prime. Between that interaction and what I've seen on the Telltale boards recently (or at least as recently as when I quit the mod team last month, as I haven't been back to the forums since), my impression is that he's a really nice guy who genuinely wants to do what's best for his community but has some really unfortunate ideas about how to do that. He's not making these decisions about the community for some evil, mean-spirited reason. He's just making stupid decisions with good intentions.

Yes I'm still alive! and I agree with what you say...

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Wow Darth Marsden that was interesting. I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I've met Kevin and he is actually a really nice guy. I did the savesamandmax.com site and he actually ordered one of the "Max Lives" t-shirts a fan had designed and wore it into LucasArts after they'd all been told they were fired. When they first created Moderators for the Telltale site I was the first person they thought of. I was the first mod of the forums, I was also one of the first members of the Telltale forum. When they changed the forums recently I was removed as a moderator and no one even told me or told me why. I guess that shows how no one really knows their history over there. I was always looking at the Sam & Max forums and there was nothing really to moderate because it seems they've abandoned that series too. If Jake still worked at Telltale I know that would never have happened. Anyway I'm glad I got to visit Telltale and meet Jake, Doug & Emily. I'm glad i got to meet Dan & Kevin. I'm glad I organised those gift baskets for telltale workers after each sam & max season. I'm glad I was there when Telltale was good.. but these days I just have no love for what they are doing..they have abandoned their history for no real good reason and shunned all the old school fans. It's a real shame.

Speaking of the savesamandmax.com site...

...should we try to bring it back?

It would be a little silly, considering they just appeared in Poker Night 2 this year.

I still think people would still like to see another Sam & Max adventure game though! Maybe they do need saving again but I think Steve Purcell is just too busy creating billion dollar movies with Pixar.

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To be honest, I don't mind that they put the adventure games on the backburner for a few years. I like that the duo is dabbling in other genres for a while. I really thought the Sam & Max dialog in the Poker Night games were the best part of them, and the games were fun too (they were first time I really have ever enjoyed playing video game poker... I liked Texas Telltale Hold'em for the same reasons (the character interactions), but I really enjoyed the Poker Night games - they really improved the writing for the characters in those).

Though with two poker games now under their belt, I think it's time to move on from that too. Out of the two cancelled games, Sam & Max: Plunge through Space was the one I wanted to play most. An action-adventure seems right up Sam & Max's alley.

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The end of the third season felt a bit like a relief. They are gone? Taht's okay, take your time guys!

It was too much Sam & Max but a lack of good enough Sam an Max at the same time. From every season you could single out one or two better episodes but still Sam & Max Hit the Road was very adventure. I was unprepared for the bungee jumping scene. One of those few moments in adventures when i really had to laugh out loud. No beer needed to be involved to raise the humour bar in this one.

A new nauhgty Sam & Max would be cool. A new more Soda Popper like Sam & Max game though, please, no!

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So, it seems they are now doing a Borderlands game. Any thoughts?

I have talked to Ringmaster on Steam about it and I don't really see the point.

BL1+2 were big grindfests and if I am honest... I played all of BL1 and I can't tell you what this all was about. It must have been a big pile of Japaneese p0rn because I only remember tentacles and disappointment.

I played about 10 hours of Borderlands 2 and lost interest completely. It's just the same but it has a final boss shouting memes at you from time to time. I don't think this is what they are good at at all but we will see. And I don't think that people want what they are good at now from a Borderlands game. But one thing is for sure: they know how to make Claptrap annoying as proven in PNatI2.

Also it means that there will be no new games in the series I am interested in in the near future. Not that I really want any considering the state of the "puzzles" & "gameplay" in their latest titles.

It's 100x better if you play with 4 friends.

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It's 100x better if you play with 4 friends.

So is watching paint dry, but I don't recommend that either.

(I did enjoy Borderlands 2, I just don't like the "Better with friends" argument)

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I played Borderlands with friends and ended up getting so bored that I wandered into the "making my own fun" arena of gameplay and started doing silly things like parking my car on top of their car and following them around shooting missiles at their car until it exploded in the middle of the desert... lobbing grenades willy nilly...

And I still almost fell asleep. No idea what was going on. Being a sniper, I just kinda hung back and played it like a point and click adventure game where the only puzzle was "Use GUN on MAN".

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I... Don't think I'll "like" another TTG ever again.

This is on Gearbox level of betrayal now. I guess it doesn't bother me that they're working together then. There's an axis of evil that needs to REALLY win me back.

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I'll check it out when they're released and see if it interests me then. Right now, I've no clue what it would possibly be like (and I never get into the first Borderlands, which is the only one I've played). Right this moment I'm slightly more interested in a Game of Thrones game but like the Borderlands one it's hard to judge when you've got nothing to judge with (but that won't/hasn't stopped plenty of people deciding right here and now what'll be like).

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I'll check it out when they're released and see if it interests me then. Right now, I've no clue what it would possibly be like (and I never get into the first Borderlands, which is the only one I've played). Right this moment I'm slightly more interested in a Game of Thrones game but like the Borderlands one it's hard to judge when you've got nothing to judge with (but that won't/hasn't stopped plenty of people deciding right here and now what'll be like).

Telltale have proclaimed themselves to have perfected what they consider "adventure gaming". Why would it not follow this formula?

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It cheeses me off to such an extent, that if I were the type to use
, I'd be employing it bitterly, and repeatedly.

That bitterness stems from the ideas that Telltale's present way of making games is not actually permissible (disproven by millions of episode customers) and the idea that moving into a certain gameplay direction could somehow be perceived as treachery among the people who were very content with Telltale's former games. And those ideas cloud your judgement.

Nothing binds Telltale to the more traditional forms of the adventure game. Nothing forces them to put brainteasers into their games. Hardly anything about what they do is a sell-out. Their concept is even, pretty undoubtedly, a vision of how games and story could mingle, purposefully and consistently pursued. And it does appeal to a very, very large group of people. Thinking of those gamers as brainless, adolescent, unambitious or "mainstream" would be a plainly incorrect assessment of the situation. Far too convenient, and superficial explanatory approaches also - almost as ennervingly bland as the 'it's not a game' or the 'it's not an adventure game' angles of argumentative irrelevance.

Yes, I liked the brainteasing kind of games Telltale made, and far, far better than anything they presently have on their plate. For me personally, their height was reached in 2010 when they started spicing up the last Sam & Max Season by introducing entirely new puzzle mechanics in each of the first three episodes. Nowadays, the feeling of immersion has subjectively plummeted while a whole new generation of Telltale fans feels it all the more. I actually adore these people, who for example have predominantly welcomed the idea to narratively walk in the shoes of a nine year old girl. Very few video game companies would have the guts to try this perspective. I'm always advocating the diversity of VG protagonists, and I happen to think that this fan acceptance is proof that Telltale doesn't just try to grab into a mainstream gamer audience. The mainstream audience wants an adult, virile male protagonist, and I've seen exactly one thread like this on the forums. The member wasn't exactly understood in his plea by the rest of the community.

What I do still think is that this extreme story focus will not satisfy Telltale forever. And that is because "choice based gameplay" does not make particularly good stories. In literature or movies, the protagonist usually only has one central choice to make; and in most stories, would he decide otherwise than he does, there would not even be a story to tell. In my opinion, the game designer's act of shoehorning 'choices' into the story feels just as narratively artificial and threatening to the integrity of the storyline as integrating puzzles into it has been. A different way of telling a story, but essentially the same problem: the necessary interactivity of games infringes on the believability of the plot. I think Telltale is just doing things differently these days, but has absolutely not found the holy grail of storytelling in games. Their solution, for me, is far less satisfying than the 90's approach to adventure gaming. For others, some of them good friends of mine, it seems to work out quite excellently.

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I think it's more about their blind opinion that appealing to more people = evolved/improved. Just look at the music industry, that's always the case, right? The majority of us wouldn't mind if they were making these new games with the hope of them making a game like before lingering about. It's their publicly spoken view of their previous games being stepping stones to perfecting adventure gaming. Representatives of the company have said numerous times that this is the future and their going the "right" direction and blah blah blah.

Most of you have seen the statements and quotes, You can't tell me that they don't read like a big middle finger sometimes.

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Telltale is amazing and does nothing wrong and I love and worship them. More words.

Are you ever going to get sick of white knighting for a company that couldn't care less that you exist?

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Telltale is amazing and does nothing wrong and I love and worship them. More words.

Are you ever going to get sick of white knighting for a company that couldn't care less that you exist?

Are you ever going to get sick of making load of bollocks out of well written and coherent posts?

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Are you ever going to get sick of making load of bollocks out of well written and coherent posts?

It doesn't matter how well written or coherent the post is if it's written from a blindingly forgiving fanboy perspective.

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Are you ever going to get sick of making load of bollocks out of well written and coherent posts?

It doesn't matter how well written or coherent the post is if it's written from a blindingly forgiving fanboy perspective.

And your post is from a blindly unforgiving hater perspective.

I CALL TRUCE.

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It doesn't matter how well written or coherent the post is if it's written from a blindingly forgiving fanboy perspective.

Oh, you didn't read it. Ok then, time wasted. Remind me to not do that again.

I think it's more about their blind opinion that appealing to more people = evolved/improved. Just look at the music industry, that's always the case, right? The majority of us wouldn't mind if they were making these new games with the hope of them making a game like before lingering about. It's their publicly spoken view of their previous games being stepping stones to perfecting adventure gaming. Representatives of the company have said numerous times that this is the future and their going the "right" direction and blah blah blah.

Most of you have seen the statements and quotes, You can't tell me that they don't read like a big middle finger sometimes.

The larger fanbase IS a factor of what they're doing, but in my opinion, their path has always been clear from the beginning. They could have started out with a completely new franchise, yet they seized on the largest comic franchise they could get their hands on at the time ("largest" not only from the number of fans, but also pages... 1,300+ pages...). They abandonned this franchise because they recognized that they wanted to tell their own stories. They always struggled with the idea of interactivity and have experimented with very long cutscenes, hidden object pictures, dialog, puzzles and QTEs for years before they arrived at their present kind of games.

Essentially, I see very clearly where they strayed off the path of the games I prefer, but I can still interpret what they've been doing for eight years as one straight highway with a predetermined destination, i.e. as much story in the game as humanly possible.

As to the things Telltale officials have said in public, they DID say that they're determined to continue in their new direction. That is a good thing. It would have been far worse had they tried to still lure fans of the more traditional forms of the adventure game in by not making clear where they're heading. They have also said that they think of this direction as an 'evolved' form of the adventure game. That, also, is a statement they had to make. Heck, if Telltale did not believe they were improving, they'd hardly come across as enthusiastic about their work. The old-timey adventure crowd makes their PR position quite complex: if they just keep quiet and don't mention a word about the adventure genre and their back catalog, people will interpret it as if they're ashamed of their former work; and if they come out and profess their love for the traditional adventure game, people will interpret it as if they're slandering these games as old fashioned and outdated.

Not that Telltale never really threw shit at the fan though. I do remember one interview in which Dan explicitly expressed the hope that other adventure developers would follow in Telltale's new and shiny shoes. He really put his foot in it back then. There's a really fine line between overboarding pride and advertisement about what they're doing and a perceived irreverence about what they have been doing, and sometimes the line gets... diffuse. :(

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I'd be more hopeful if a new project did anything at all to shake it up a bit. I don't even care if it's good at this point. I just want to see something that hints that, in fact, what they're doing now isn't *it*. Dan's comments haven't really left me hopeful at all though(the whole "Mission Accomplished" vibe going on). I want to like them again, I really do. I'd love for them to release a game I'd want to play. I'm just not as hopeful about it.

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I'd be more hopeful if a new project did anything at all to shake it up a bit. I don't even care if it's good at this point. I just want to see something that hints that, in fact, what they're doing now isn't *it*. Dan's comments haven't really left me hopeful at all though(the whole "Mission Accomplished" vibe going on). I want to like them again, I really do. I'd love for them to release a game I'd want to play. I'm just not as hopeful about it.

(This comment was written before my post update was finished)

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I agree with your post and yes, it was more so the comments rather than the games which pushed me away. There are developers and publishers which have strayed from the content I enjoyed, but I still keep an eye on because I know what they *can* do and may do again. I understand that the best way to defuse controversy is to ignore it and wait for the culture surrounding it to move on to the next issue, but to those it really affected, this silence can be construed as standing behind said point.

Basically, we are left with two opinions on those foot-in-mouth comments. We could either see them(and the following silence) as overzealous idiotic comments and wait for the next path TTG decides to venture, or we could see them as TTG affirming it, sticking to their guns and giving the traditional adventure game fans a big "#@$% you".

Honestly, and sadly, we don't truly know the relevance of those comments. I am, again, hopeful that he just got excited and different directions will come to fruition in the near future, but... there is always that "but...".

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So, now they are selling millions of copies, the studio has increased, gamers are listening to them, ... uhm, what was your point? Why do you think they'll make traditional adventures again? I mean apart from maybe some very personal labour of love thing if you had everything else already?

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