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...How is the Walking Dead not an adventure game.

I mean, it's not a super old-school one, but it's streamlined in a very intelligent way, and it's roots are absolutely in the adventure genre.

i think they're missing the puzzles. those annoying, obtuse adventure game puzzles.

So the problem with old-school adventure games was that those obtuse puzzles never really meshed with the world as well as they should, not even in total comedies. I thought Sam & Max 3, though, did a interesting job by giving you a set number of objects with specific abilities to use on puzzles (The psychic toys).

If you miss the old school puzzles, check out Zack and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros Treasure.

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Hello! Most of you probably don't remember me... probably not going to change anytime soon if that's the case.

I do. Welcome to the Telltale refugee thread! :)

As do I! I always liked your pony avatar.

Brohoof.

And a Brohoof to you too!

/)(\

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*yawn* Hey guys what up?

Somehow the forum looks different.

Can't quite put my finger on what's changed....

Oh well. Guess I'll go eat some spam or something and get back to business then. :)

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...How is the Walking Dead not an adventure game.

I mean, it's not a super old-school one, but it's streamlined in a very intelligent way, and it's roots are absolutely in the adventure genre.

i think they're missing the puzzles. those annoying, obtuse adventure game puzzles.

So the problem with old-school adventure games was that those obtuse puzzles never really meshed with the world as well as they should, not even in total comedies. I thought Sam & Max 3, though, did a interesting job by giving you a set number of objects with specific abilities to use on puzzles (The psychic toys).

If you miss the old school puzzles, check out Zack and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros Treasure.

i actually really liked zack and wiki and i finished it. i think the difference is that in that game all the levels are self-contained and relatively small so you never get too frustrated by not knowing if you're in the right place with the right thing.

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...How is the Walking Dead not an adventure game.

I mean, it's not a super old-school one, but it's streamlined in a very intelligent way, and it's roots are absolutely in the adventure genre.

I have a recording of myself playing this game in which I can not walk into very obviously open areas, and trying to do so causes the main character to get stuck and FLOAT IN THE AIR.

The part at the beginning where you have to pull yourself alongside a police car because of your busted leg? YOU CAN'T GO BACKWARDS ALONG THE POLICE CAR. The part where zombies are chasing you through the area. CUTSCENE. NOT PLAYABLE.

Intelligent, my bumbum. LAZY.

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...How is the Walking Dead not an adventure game.

I mean, it's not a super old-school one, but it's streamlined in a very intelligent way, and it's roots are absolutely in the adventure genre.

I have a recording of myself playing this game in which I can not walk into very obviously open areas, and trying to do so causes the main character to get stuck and FLOAT IN THE AIR.

The part at the beginning where you have to pull yourself alongside a police car because of your busted leg? YOU CAN'T GO BACKWARDS ALONG THE POLICE CAR. The part where zombies are chasing you through the area. CUTSCENE. NOT PLAYABLE.

Intelligent, my bumbum. LAZY.

So the first one is a glitch, and telltale games have always been glitchy. The second is not very elegant, yes, but also does not discount the rest of the design choices in Walking Dead, and their overall intelligence.

Design is always a question of picking limitations, as you can't do everything and are working in a schedule. Telltale did a very good job of picking limitations in the Walking Dead that brought out the narrative parts of adventure games while leaving some of the more obtuse elements by the wayside.

So I stand by it being intelligent, from a design perspective. Certainly not perfect, but to call it lazy is unfair and false.

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Those obtuse elements are called gameplay. Gameplay that used to teach critical thinking and problem solving skills. But now people are too lazy and easily upset by having to use their grey matter to handle that, so it's all cut out to pander to them.

See why Telltale wanted me gone a long time ago. :D

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

Maybe they need to be more context sensitive:

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

One of my best friends beat every single game in the Sierra library before he was twelve. Without walkthroughs. All it took was patience and critical thinking.

There is far too much rose tinted nostalgia when it comes to old adventure games.

You're right. Those dumb games should go away forever. By the way, I never played an adventure game before the 2000s.

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

One of my best friends beat every single game in the Sierra library before he was twelve. Without walkthroughs. All it took was patience and critical thinking.

There is far too much rose tinted nostalgia when it comes to old adventure games.

You're right. Those dumb games should go away forever. By the way, I never played an adventure game before the 2000s.

Both of these responses are logical fallacies. The first is an "Appeal to Authority," and the second is a "Straw Man Argument."

I'm not saying your viewpoint is totally invalid, as there can be a lot of fun in adventure game puzzles -- see, Zack & Wiki. But having just made a game about detecting this very thing I can't help but point this out.

Anyway, to respond to your point about the elements being removed being called "gameplay..." yes, that is a form of gameplay. But so are dynamic dialogue trees. Telltale decided to focus on that and the relationships you have with people in the Walking Dead, and puzzles do not contribute to that focus as much as the trees do.

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

One of my best friends beat every single game in the Sierra library before he was twelve. Without walkthroughs. All it took was patience and critical thinking.

probably more patience than critical thinking. anyway i don't want to be too hard on adventure games because i know what you mean. some puzzles were actually very intelligent and fun. i like TWD brand of adventure but i'm not opposed to the old school kind when it's done right. that's why i backed broken age.

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....

Chief, I could not care any less about that pointless debate speak.

The adventure game as written by Telltale has de-volved instead of evolved. They have gotten less complex instead of more complex to adjust to their rushed development cycle. At least Broken Age isn't doing that.

Want an example of EVOLVING THE GENRE? The LAST EXPRESS. Which by the way has no problem being cinematic. Too bad it sold so poorly. People don't have the patience for complex things.

EDIT: Conker is SO GOOD. I have no problem with context-sensitive gameplay, as long as it comes with some freedom.

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the gameplay of the adventure games i've played has been highly overrated. it's less critical thinking skills and more hope that you sync up with whatever brand of fridge logic the designer had. failing that then just use every object with every interaction and wait for some nonsensical thing to happen.

Maybe they need to be more context sensitive:

this game was very entertaining. i loved the ending

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....

Chief, I could not care any less about that pointless debate speak.

I mean, it exists for a reason. Certain patterns of conversation do nothing to help develop feelings or rational opinions.

The adventure game as written by Telltale has de-volved instead of evolved. They have gotten less complex instead of more complex to adjust to their rushed development cycle. At least Broken Age isn't doing that.

Want an example of EVOLVING THE GENRE? The LAST EXPRESS. Which by the way has no problem being cinematic. Too bad it sold so poorly. People don't have the patience for complex things.

So here you are conflating becoming less complex with devolving. Becoming less complex is a totally viable option for evolution -- there are many advantages to streamlining your design. And this is me speaking as a professional game designer, okay? SEE THAT. I APPEALED TO AUTHORITY... ON MYSELF. But you shouldn't care because calling that a fallacy is pointless debate speak =P

Okay, backing out of the convo now =P (Jenni below has the ultimate point, I think. That's where I personally stand.)

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The adventure game as written by Telltale has de-volved instead of evolved. They have gotten less complex instead of more complex to adjust to their rushed development cycle.
I don't think the latter is true for the game design. The streamlining of the control system and simplifying of inventory puzzles is definitely a stylistic choice. Although, the glitches and such are definitely due to rushing.

I personally like both Telltale's new streamlined adventure game style and the 90's LucasArts and Sierra adventure game styles. I think they both deserve to co-exist together since they both manage what they're setting out to do. It's just that they're setting out to do different things. And there's nothing wrong with that.

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Fallacies, I find, just typically become a way to criticize someone without looking at their overall point.

I can't argue against a designer's right to streamline, but it bothers me that nobody is trying to evolve the genre in the other TOTALLY VALID direction that The Last Express took, and I mean NOBODY, and such design ideas are treated as taboo and outdated. Even Tim Schafer said "puzzles should go". And as a game developer TOO, it bothers me that the type of game I want to make and is my DREAM to make is a game no one wants anymore. And come on, if people heard tomorrow that Broken Age would have unforgiving puzzles like the games of the 90s, money would be refunded.

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....

Chief, I could not care any less about that pointless debate speak.

The adventure game as written by Telltale has de-volved instead of evolved. They have gotten less complex instead of more complex to adjust to their rushed development cycle. At least Broken Age isn't doing that.

Want an example of EVOLVING THE GENRE? The LAST EXPRESS. Which by the way has no problem being cinematic. Too bad it sold so poorly. People don't have the patience for complex things.

EDIT: Conker is SO GOOD. I have no problem with context-sensitive gameplay, as long as it comes with some freedom.

I agree that what adventure games need is less simplification and SMARTER Puzzles.

Alot of adventure games fall into the trap of just using everything on everything and thats not very satisfying, which is why I brought up context sensitive gameplay. (Over the traditional methods of say inventory management (not saying it CAN'T have inventory, its that its not the SOLE focus of the puzzles)

I think it would be nice to see more open world adventure games with areas that have self-contained puzzles that then contain clues to an overall puzzle, (even clues that lead to an overall secret puzzle for perfectionists if you really wanted to be smart about it).

I'm thinking stuff like Physics puzzles (a little overdone these days with puzzle platformers, but why not get a little math involved, make it a little harder and a little educational to match to the slower paced gameplay of a point and click), timing puzzles, arrangements, investigation, conversation, basically look towards the everyday stuff we handle as people and adapt that into the context of the game, (but add a little quirkyness and fun to the world to keep it interesting. I always liked Scott Rogers "Triangle of Weirdness" of Characters, Setting, and Plot/activities. That two of the three things can be weird but not all three because it creates a sense of discomforting isolation to the audience, that they need something to anchor to. So in this case we can keep the setting familiar, that its an adventure game. Whether it be fantasy, or serious, or even something goofy like I dunno, Pirates on a Treasure Island or something... so gameplay wise they do piratey things, with piratey puzzles, but the plot has some interesting weirdness to it, as do the characters so it keeps it interesting)

EDIT: (I'll tell you one game that is an excellent example of this weirdness is Deadly Premonition. The setting is normal, but the plot, the characters, and the activities they do is weird. Fantastically weird and I love this game for it, and more games need to just BE FUN)

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Fallacies, I find, just typically become a way to criticize someone without looking at their overall point.

I can't argue against a designer's right to streamline, but it bothers me that nobody is trying to evolve the genre in the other TOTALLY VALID direction that The Last Express took, and I mean NOBODY, and such design ideas are treated as taboo and outdated. Even Tim Schafer said "puzzles should go". And as a game developer TOO, it bothers me that the type of game I want to make and is my DREAM to make is a game no one wants anymore. And come on, if people heard tomorrow that Broken Age would have unforgiving puzzles like the games of the 90s, money would be refunded.

So quick response, Fallacies are a way to point out the way you are supporting your argument is not logical. If someone is using them to just assume your conclusion is false, they are using them wrong -- only if your argument was supported by nothing BUT fallacies, which yours is not, would it be grounds to throw it out. However, that does not discount the value of detecting and avoiding fallacies in your own thoughts and avoiding them, because they make everything you say more reasonable.

And on another note, I just looked up The Last Express, and it looks pretty awesome. ...Actually it has a bit of overlap with a project I am working on, so I'll have to play it for research. (though puzzles is probably not one of them)

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I'm all for any game that makes you think... which it seems the video game industry has gone away from since adventure games ruled. Shoot something, kill something, drive something, but never use your mind. I liked that you had to think about the choices you made in Walking Dead but I thought it was better done in Heavy Rain because in that game your choices had real consequences. Do I jump out of this building to avoid the fire?(if you do you die) or find another way to save myself [hide in the fridge] To me that is brilliant.

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I'm all for any game that makes you think... which it seems the video game industry has gone away from since adventure games ruled. Shoot something, kill something, drive something, but never use your mind. I liked that you had to think about the choices you made in Walking Dead but I thought it was better done in Heavy Rain because in that game your choices had real consequences. Do I jump out of this building to avoid the fire?(if you do you die) or find another way to save myself [hide in the fridge] To me that is brilliant.
Heavy Rain's writing was terrible though. Those choices only feel like they matter if you care about the characters involved. Walking Dead did that without the creators making a big deal about how "emotional" their game would be.

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I can't help but think that hiding in the fridge (even if you took out all the shelves so you would fit) would be a terrible idea in a fire.

I mean, you'd probably die of smoke inhalation. And the fridge is insulated, yes, but in a house fire, that would end up working against you as it slowly heated up. So even if you were not dead by smoke, you'd probably get roasted. Or you'd die from the fall when the floor gave way.

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I'm always amused at how controversial Telltale is in adventure communities.

Like their games or not, it seems AGers are overprotective of the genre and feel a bit threatened by Telltale's success.

The thing is, just because they've found a successful formula which is light on gameplay/puzzles doesn't mean every other developer is following suit. Telltale is just another flavor in a sea of options.

In other words, I see no reason to be concerned with Telltale's success. Old school point and click isn't going to die as a result of it, and the adventure genre is as strong as ever with a vast array of options.

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Well, that's different... but I don't think it would work as well as it seems like it would. For the Indiana Jones version, that's actually based on a Cold War urban legend that you could survive a nuclear blast by climbing into your lead-lined refrigerator.

Richard Armour (great comic writer) thought the idea was so ridiculous, he wrote a poem about it.

Move over, ham and quartered cow,

My Geiger says the time is now.

Yes, now I lay me down to sleep,

And if I die, at least I'll keep.

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I'm always amused at how controversial Telltale is in adventure communities.

Like their games or not, it seems AGers are overprotective of the genre and feel a bit threatened by Telltale's success.

The thing is, just because they've found a successful formula which is light on gameplay/puzzles doesn't mean every other developer is following suit. Telltale is just another flavor in a sea of options.

In other words, I see no reason to be concerned with Telltale's success. Old school point and click isn't going to die as a result of it, and the adventure genre is as strong as ever with a vast array of options.

I'm just upset that I spent hundreds of dollars on a company that apparently gave zero fucks about my existence, and just saw me as a cash cow to be milked.

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Telltale were supposed to be different. They lured us in and got us to trust them, and then once they'd collected enough money from us, spit in our faces and laughed at us.

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