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fabooster

Caberjack small suggestion

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Heya, Guys!!

I was here on one of my insomniac wanderings and it suddenly got to me why out of all the classes (that i love btw) the caberjack was somehow not cutting it for me. And I thought was weird because it's the class I wanted to like the most! I LOVE IT, but the weapon, It was looking just... so impractical and cumbersome for some reason (even considering superhuman heroes with amazing strength hahaha).

And then it occurred to me it may be this simple thing (sorry about the bad drawing, i hope it's understandable =p): photo CaberWristPosition_zpsd08e03fa.jpg

You see the wrist there? I figure if you just rotate the handles 90 degrees the thing will just be a lot more useable. That is because you can draw a lot more force by using it on that position. Just about every movement i can think about with the thing suddenly becomes much more plausible.

Of course it's just a suggestion (there may be even better ones). It's just that as a person that studies movement, that one just bugged me a lot all of a sudden hahahaha

Thanks for your time! Keep up the awesome work!!

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Mmm. Someone with some sweet math skills, do some equations so we compare the power and force behind each position. :-)

Smiles

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You guys want to SWAT team it. Back hand hold in the grip style, forehand holds in the style pictured above. Like a minigun. TIME TO LET OL' PAINLESS OUT OF THE BAG.

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ya. this grip seems more realistic and functional in some good ways, never noticed that before.

the caber handles have probably been designed that way to make the caber visually interesting. turn the handle 90 degrees and the caber's profile is more interesting visually with handles parallel to the shaft.

also the Caber is not like a shield or other weapon most warriors wield, in that the force that it exerts is NOT given to it by the wielder. a caber is literally a battering ram, that means its principle feature is it's weight. a ram gets the force it exerts on a target from gravity. you pull back/lift up the ram, and release. letting gravity throw the ram's enormous weight against a door/wall/demon. the same principle decides how woodcutters cut wood. a person could use muscular force to chop wood, but would very quickly wear himself out. so woodcutters bring the axe above there head and then let gravity propel the axe towards the wood. all the woodcutter does start the axe moving and guide it to its target. this means that maybe the first (inefficant) handle design may actualy be most efficant. the caber jack isnt likely driveing the caber at a demon with muscular force. rather lifting the caber up and back, then releasing swinging the caber forward.

this means that most of what the caber jack does is lift the caber not thrust the caber. so maybe that first handle would be more efficient.

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Hey cool observations! Thought i have to point out a few things.

the caber handles have probably been designed that way to make the caber visually interesting. turn the handle 90 degrees and the caber's profile is more interesting visually with handles parallel to the shaft.

Yeah, the original grip looks cooler looking by the side, but remember the game is experienced in an isometric view, so the rotated grip can look just as cool when you put the Z axis on to the equation.

also the Caber is not like a shield or other weapon most warriors wield, in that the force that it exerts is NOT given to it by the wielder. a caber is literally a battering ram, that means its principle feature is it's weight. a ram gets the force it exerts on a target from gravity. you pull back/lift up the ram, and release. letting gravity throw the ram's enormous weight against a door/wall/demon. the same principle decides how woodcutters cut wood. a person could use muscular force to chop wood, but would very quickly wear himself out. so woodcutters bring the axe above there head and then let gravity propel the axe towards the wood. all the woodcutter does start the axe moving and guide it to its target. this means that maybe the first (inefficant) handle design may actualy be most efficant. the caber jack isnt likely driveing the caber at a demon with muscular force. rather lifting the caber up and back, then releasing swinging the caber forward.

this means that most of what the caber jack does is lift the caber not thrust the caber. so maybe that first handle would be more efficient.

About using gravity, that was precisely one of the reasons i felt the original grip bugged me, let me try to illustrate that particular point a bit better:

photo CaberWristPosition2_zpsabbddd21.jpg

Thinking about the arm as a rope, on the original design all the rotation on the swing happens on the wrist, since the wrist is not rotating on the same axis as the rest of the arm, rotating the handle makes the wrist is freer. It's more ergonomic. I can totally see a dude trying to replicate this weapon and potentially hurting himself.

You can even make the trust go further , because If you release one of your hands midswing you can push the caber momentum further (it can even be a skill that allows CJ to trust one square further at the cost of not attacking next turn or something.) You can do it on the original too, of course, but it doesn't look as practical.

I'm not at all saying I'm 100% in the right, here. It's just that it looks so much more functional to me for it to be that way.

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A quick google image search of police battering ram, shows you're on point! Maybe they're trying to avoid the class from having the same exact stance as Heavy weapons guy, or just a dude with a mini gun?

Whoa! How come i didn't think of doing that!! hahaha

About the stance, I can't think of too many ways to deviate from HWG's as is. I don't think the grip will change that a whole lot =p

But there's something really fun about carrying it like a minigun yet it's just a really heavy log ;D

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A quick google image search of police battering ram, shows you're on point! Maybe they're trying to avoid the class from having the same exact stance as Heavy weapons guy, or just a dude with a mini gun?

Whoa! How come i didn't think of doing that!! hahaha

About the stance, I can't think of too many ways to deviate from HWG's as is. I don't think the grip will change that a whole lot =p

But there's something really fun about carrying it like a minigun yet it's just a really heavy log ;D

Yeah kinda similarly cool as the balista-zooka.

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Yeah, it's a pivot. Rocks back on the arm joint. Slam forwards like a jackhammer on a swing into demons for great justice.

I see no reason why the caber in "carrying mode" couldn't or wouldn't have a bandolier strap or a shoulder harness so that it was slung sideways like HWG and his minigun while you're lumping it around the battlefield.

I also think it should have a couple of handles in different points for different caber modes. Using the caber with the hip-slung harness for door and shell cracking, but maybe two grips on the base for when the caber is held at attention in throwing mode?

CaberToss.jpg

... and as a barrier would be something you'd do "crossbar style" with a different set of handles. You know, classic garbage compactor scene with one guy holding up huge crossbrace horizontally to stem the closing walls.

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Hey guys! You have some really great points here!

There are a few things to consider: The caber itself is a really cumbersome and odd weapon, there is a reason there weren't large groups of soldiers wielding man sized battering rams in the 100 years war for example. So I'm faced with this problem of a person using a siege style weapon that is meant to smash large fortified fixed structures on small flexible/non-fixed target. Also, it must to look sexy.

The thing is both zdesert and fabooster are correct. The proper point of rotation should be right where the handles attach to the weapon itself. This does lend itself to some problems, the 'mini-gun' handles are great for swinging the weapon like a ram to smash a door, not really great for anything else. For example the rear hand gets into awkward positions if you try to use the caber to push a target in front of you or slam/pile drive the weapon straight into the ground or swing it in any way that is not a thrusting motion.

the caber is also in flux right now. The current look of the weapon (including the handles) are still up in the air. Derek is currently working on new versions of his weapons that will replace the existing caber, once he does i'm going to dive in and clean up all the current very placeholder animations! =)

Great feedback guys! I'm going to see how i can incorporate some of this into the anims. Maybe i'll post some footage of me swinging around a mock caber trying to figure out how one would really fight with it!

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Hey guys! You have some really great points here!

There are a few things to consider: The caber itself is a really cumbersome and odd weapon, there is a reason there weren't large groups of soldiers wielding man sized battering rams in the 100 years war for example. So I'm faced with this problem of a person using a siege style weapon that is meant to smash large fortified fixed structures on small flexible/non-fixed target. Also, it must to look sexy.

The thing is both zdesert and fabooster are correct. The proper point of rotation should be right where the handles attach to the weapon itself. This does lend itself to some problems, the 'mini-gun' handles are great for swinging the weapon like a ram to smash a door, not really great for anything else. For example the rear hand gets into awkward positions if you try to use the caber to push a target in front of you or slam/pile drive the weapon straight into the ground or swing it in any way that is not a thrusting motion.

the caber is also in flux right now. The current look of the weapon (including the handles) are still up in the air. Derek is currently working on new versions of his weapons that will replace the existing caber, once he does i'm going to dive in and clean up all the current very placeholder animations! =)

Great feedback guys! I'm going to see how i can incorporate some of this into the anims. Maybe i'll post some footage of me swinging around a mock caber trying to figure out how one would really fight with it!

How much have you thought about him in terms of the tank role? I read that he'd knock enemies around, but there is less of a typical role standard in the game which is why you won't have a cleric, for example. Either way - if he's going to block with it, I think the grips should go across the log, and not along it, as the weight doesn't lie in the grip; it'll start pivoting in his hands to lie against his wrists which probably isn't the best for blocking.

Just a thought if he's going to do any defending.

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gravity moves the object for you!

That's absurd. Gravity's a constant. The force a man applies is what changes where and how quickly an object he's holding moves.

carrying mode

Sounds like needless extra modeling and animations (transformation between modes). A strap would be interesting as would the caberjack holding the caber like that dude with a log in your picture.

Maybe i'll post some footage of me swinging around a mock caber trying to figure out how one would really fight with it!

Eagerly anticipated.

Sounds like you're doing something original with a class by having it knockback/movement-focused. Have you considered making a boring tank like in every other rpg?

Please no.

Ah'd much rather play with classes that've roles and interaction between their roles I'ven't experienced before, making MC something special, memorable, and fun than have the team go through a checklist, "here's what everyone else has done for the last decade+ lets just re-iterate the same design".

http://images.fashionmodeldirectory.com/model/000000348912-masha_voronina-fullsize.jpg

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One of the things I like about the Caberjack, and pretty much all of the classes other than Vanguard, is that right now, they feel unique. Hopefully that can be retained as we move into the actual gameplay mechanics that are chosen.

Smiles

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One of the things I like about the Caberjack, and pretty much all of the classes other than Vanguard, is that right now, they feel unique. Hopefully that can be retained as we move into the actual gameplay mechanics that are chosen.

Smiles

Yeah! Something new but not totally foreign, like the Beerzerker.

I'm not sure what that picture of that pretty lady Blood Bridle is for but it doesn't hurt your argument.

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Post about caberjack weapons? Sound like you need... MORE PICTURES OF WOMEN!

http://images.fashionmodeldirectory.com/model/000000348912-masha_voronina-fullsize.jpg

Really, we're back to this now? To revert to cold sweat and shakes if you don't post pictures of questionable relevance on a regular basis?

Either way - if he’s going to block with it, I think the grips should go across the log, and not along it, as the weight doesn’t lie in the grip; it’ll start pivoting in his hands to lie against his wrists which probably isn’t the best for blocking.

Just a thought if he's going to do any defending.

at all.

You surprise me, I thought you of all people would be able to empathize with hurting wrists.

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How much have you thought about him in terms of the tank role? I read that he'd knock enemies around, but there is less of a typical role standard in the game which is why you won't have a cleric, for example. Either way - if he's going to block with it, I think the grips should go across the log, and not along it, as the weight doesn't lie in the grip; it'll start pivoting in his hands to lie against his wrists which probably isn't the best for blocking.

Just a thought if he's going to do any defending.

Well, i'm focused on how this guy animates more than his design (that is the department for John Bernhelm) i do know even though the caber might be a slightly beefier unit he is not supposed to be a tank, he is more about zone control and pushing enemies around.

We have learned a lot of good lessons from similar games and all units should do damage, how beefy you make them is up to you based of of their equipment. I probably shouldn't say much more about the design as i don't want to spread any misinformation or talk about design before it's ready. =)

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Aw, when I saw last post by "DFGeoff" I thought it was going to have some sweet videos of you swinging around a caber all jack-style. :(

Smiles

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Aw, when I saw last post by "DFGeoff" I thought it was going to have some sweet videos of you swinging around a caber all jack-style. :(

Smiles

Soon =) It will happen next week some time.

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Aw, when I saw last post by "DFGeoff" I thought it was going to have some sweet videos of you swinging around a caber all jack-style. :(

Smiles

Soon =) It will happen next week some time.

Sounds like DF is going to lose some doors for caberjack research!

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Well, i'm focused on how this guy animates more than his design (that is the department for John Bernhelm) i do know even though the caber might be a slightly beefier unit he is not supposed to be a tank, he is more about zone control and pushing enemies around.

We have learned a lot of good lessons from similar games and all units should do damage, how beefy you make them is up to you based of of their equipment. I probably shouldn't say much more about the design as i don't want to spread any misinformation or talk about design before it's ready. =)

It's good to know he's not tanking.

The import of zone control for a class will depend on factors like

1) Are class abilities affected much by placement?

2) How important does the level make placement?

Some aura-buffs and map hazards are steps in the right direction towards making the ability to move enemies important.

Are you giving him hairy arms? A kilt? Here's some weightlifters moving to inspire a sense of heft to the dude's movements.

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How much have you thought about him in terms of the tank role? I read that he'd knock enemies around, but there is less of a typical role standard in the game which is why you won't have a cleric, for example. Either way - if he's going to block with it, I think the grips should go across the log, and not along it, as the weight doesn't lie in the grip; it'll start pivoting in his hands to lie against his wrists which probably isn't the best for blocking.

Just a thought if he's going to do any defending.

Well, i'm focused on how this guy animates more than his design (that is the department for John Bernhelm) i do know even though the caber might be a slightly beefier unit he is not supposed to be a tank, he is more about zone control and pushing enemies around.

We have learned a lot of good lessons from similar games and all units should do damage, how beefy you make them is up to you based of of their equipment. I probably shouldn't say much more about the design as i don't want to spread any misinformation or talk about design before it's ready. =)

Damage and beefiness are the things I look at last, but some classes needs those numbers tweaked different to function in different ways to support their toolset. EG a beefy rogue has little reason to use stealth and just one less reason try that playstyle.

I'm getting all antsy waiting for more information on the classes, because I keep hearing what you've got planned, but I keep seeing specific toolset requirements for the class to be useful, and either the knockback is dramatic (which causes other problems), or he's gonna have to be beefy while knocking several people around to compensate for his lack of range and requiring enemies to be standing around him; or just add a massive amount of map hazards, though that makes it seem like it'll either synergize with alchemists almost exclusively, or make the areas unnecessarily difficult to navigate. I'm just superimposing my own imagined toolset and I'll just have to be patient

Aw, when I saw last post by "DFGeoff" I thought it was going to have some sweet videos of you swinging around a caber all jack-style. :(

Smiles

Soon =) It will happen next week some time.

Please get footage of that for the livestream! Try to make sure as many people from the office tries it out, and make a no-budget edit of muirs tooth getting knocked out. Just make sure it's the right one, or I'd feel bad.

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Damage and beefiness are the things I look at last, but some classes needs those numbers tweaked different to function in different ways to support their toolset. EG a beefy rogue has little reason to use stealth and just one less reason try that playstyle.

the thing is there will be no 'Rouge' class and no "tank" class. you will never have a class designed for stealth but crippled by stats given to you by your brawler uncle.

lets say you have a hero with the primary class arbolast and secondary caber jack. those two classes are the most dissonant in game, a ranged dps and a melee tank. you would think that you would have a crippled class stats wise right?

ranged skills with front line melee stats? an archer with melee spells (abilities)?

I think Min-Maxing in this game will be difficult that is for sure especially with the complex genetic stats system genetic traits and relic weapons. but i dont see a problem, heres why.

Remember from the team streams it seems the team has is considering allowing all hybrid classes to have access to the weapons of both his/her parents.

and every hybrid class will have at least a few hybrid specific skills/abilities/spells (whatever we are calling them). so for a made up example: "marked shot" which gives bonus melee damage to an enemy shot by the hybrid. so in use you shoot marked shot at a demon from range, switch to caber charge in next turn dealing big damage! hybrids will be less specialized but more flexible.

furthermore regardless of parents (who give some bonus stats/levels but dont reduce base stats) your arbolast will be still have all the arbolast base stats and only gain some bonus ones based on his linage. he will never be worse at being an arbolast then other arbolasts he will just have some extra utility.

And finally genetic traits! if you have a bred some caber jacks with a genetic traits like " blood lust" (small chance to attack twice in a turn) that could benefit your arbolasts, it is worth it to breed those classes together. and if your arbolasts have a bad tendency to be 'nearsighted' it could be very worth you while to breed some front line capability into them.

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The genetic system, mixed with a hybrid class system, is one of the coolest things I like about MC. Hopefully the execution of it all will live up!

Smiles

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Aw, when I saw last post by "DFGeoff" I thought it was going to have some sweet videos of you swinging around a caber all jack-style. :(

Smiles

Soon =) It will happen next week some time.

HAHAHA I can't wait to see that!!

And it's soooo cool that you guys are actually really reading this, most devs would be just annoyed by a nitpicky post like this one hahaha.

Hope it helped, though! ;D

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