Sign in to follow this  
valiance

More Enemy Types

Recommended Posts

After Watching Teamstream 10, I was torn between two feelings: love for all the enemy types we saw, and sadness that we didn't get any more of them. I understand the MC team is working under significant temporal and financial constraints, but I just can't see 7 enemy types being enough! I guess chess only has 6 unique piece types, and it does OK! But I was really hoping for more variety.

For comparison, there were 16 or so proposed shapes in teamstream 5: http://blog.massivechalice.com/post/59816695219/heres-an-updated-version-of-the-current-demon

X-COM's got about ~13 enemy types without palette swaps: http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Aliens_(XCOM:_Enemy_Unknown)

FFT well, it's got even more than that: 16 monster types, plus another 16 or so basic classes, plus unique enemies.

So FFT's coterie is probably a bit excessive, and definitely unrealistic, but I think I'd be a lot happier, and the game would be a lot better, with the addition of maybe another 3 or so enemy types for massive chalice. Halfway between the current number and X-COM's. :D

Heck even addition of a single extra monster (a second corrosion demon) would balance out the symmetry a bit: 2 monsters for each type!

I will note in MC's favor the enemy types are all quite different from each other and are these really bizarre (awesome) asymmetrical shapes. It's not throwing a new hat or gun on a guy and you have a whole new enemy type, I get that!

That said, anyone else feeling there's a paucity of enemy types? I think there are way more hero classes at our disposal (with hybrids) than there are enemies. And with all the variety from traits there's a lot of complexity on our side and what looks like not a ton on the enemy side. Maybe balance that out a bit? Move a bit of the complexity away from the player side, and invest some more in enemy variety? I think enemy variety is going to be more important in the end. I'd rather have a limited number of tools and a whole bunch of problems to solve than a ton of tools with only a few different problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quality over quantity /cliche. I think the enemies each having specific roles will have players overlook the fact that there aren't many of them. I'm sure the different combinations/quantities of them will diversify the gameplay enough to make it enjoyable. It seems like adding just one enemy to a battle (whether it be through fog of war reveals or the such) can change the players actions significantly from what they discussed so far.

That being said (like you said) I think one or two more unique enemies won't hurt. As long as the enemies don't become HP bars with different models, I'm sure it'll turn out fine. FF (epic RPG's in genreal) has a ton of forgettable enemies (non-bosses) that aren't part of their "hallmark" because they're just stylized models with hp bars imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we ll see how it turns out with the different ability combinations. I dont think sheer numbers are that important - although x-com did great in having very unique types even with many. but whats important is how interesting it is to fight those that are there. if they have interesting attacks and good AI and tactics, and play differently in different combinations with other types (or different environments)...thats what ll make it fun. having a bunch of dudes that are just stronger and stronger will never get interesting no matter how many superficial variations there are. so...well designed but few enemies I think is probably better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd rather have a limited number of tools and a whole bunch of problems to solve than a ton of tools with only a few different problems.

I agree. If there is not a lot of different problems, players will quickly figure out which classes (and hybrids) are the best tools and they will be the ones that are used. This could create the situation where the best way to play the game is not the most fun way to play the game.

However, more problems to solve doesn't necessarily have to be more enemies. Like they talked about in the stream, the demons could have different tiers, with abilities unlocking for the demons as well, as you progress in the game. In this way some classes (or hybrids) may work better early game and other combinations better late game. In that way you would still use a wide spectrum of your tools, just at different times in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While most of Valiance's posts are the ravings of a madman, this one I can really agree with. Having a limited number of monsters drastically cuts down on replay ability. You guys keep talking about discovering a variety of fun ways to play but with such a limited number of monsters that expression of different character types essentially becomes muted. I can bash in a spore's sphere skull with a caber jack, or cut it down with a vanguard but it becomes boring if its always the same spore.

Having additional monsters with unique abilities or mechanics forces one to experiment with a variety of playstyles. Tactics and strategies that might work on one compliment of enemies might not on another. I believe it will become immediately apparent in play testing that having too few a variety of enemies will make progression very boring.

Here are some quick solutions that might save some animation money

Idea #1

As heros level enemies also increase in difficultly not only in hp and damage but unlock abilities as the game progresses. You get to keep the same models (maybe some minor variations ie color scheme or some minor cosmetic changes.) So you arent fighting clones the entire game. You can reuse the same attack animations just have different status effects applied on the heroes.

Idea #2

Add additional monsters

Monster idea:

Tumor blob guy: Growth

A chance on attack to attach itself to the attacked hero paralyzing it taking stats & hp from that character to improve its own. can only be knocked off by an ally.

to make it creepy maybe just add a whole bunch of crazy teeth and eyes like some hp lovecraft horror.

Ghost ash/rust guy: corrosion

Disintegrates into dust to move. Cannot attack and cannot be attacked while moving.

okay the dust effect will take some coding but its a fun mechanic

Emergency idea please don't do this unless the games future is likely compromised

make additional monsters available for DLC. Good source of income, wont affect expected delivery date and is a fantastic source of revenue for modest amount of work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the team's going to be able to afford putting in any more creatures. To be honest, 1 more in the corrosion family (to round it out to 2 each) would make me a super happy camper, but I also don't mind running with 7. The team's obviously put a lot of thought into each creature being entirely unique, and their discussions made me feel pretty good about what's planned so far. Also, any comparisons to XCOM on the quantity side feel off to me. Fair enough stylistically, but XCOM would've had at least 50 times the budget of MC, and that's a super conservative estimate. I'd be happy with 7 or 8, as long as the team delivers on the pretty awesome variation that has been discussed so far :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey everybody! Thanks for the comments and concerns!

I pretty much agree with everything in this thread: enemies and enemy combinations are the combat puzzles you'll need to solve to be successful at the game. The more (quality) variety, the better. Seven enemy types is less than XCOM and FFT and that doesn't sound super impressive.

But! We're stoked about this enemy mix as we think it hits the major elements needed for combat, introduces some new and crazy abilities, and features unique non-stat-bag enemies.

Scoping is a major element of finishing up pre-production. We have a budget, a time window, and a team, and while nothing is final til the game ships, we have to plan accordingly. Since we haven't prototyped all of these enemies in combat yet, a lot about them will change - ie how well will the Voltron-combining of spores into a spawner work? Will the Swapper movement be an interesting challenge or just random and annoying as hell? Will one of these enemies be implemented and fun in a day while another takes many tries to get right?

The dudes we've discussed on the stream so far represent the scope of production we think we'll have for enemies, at least on launch. Hopefully they'll all make it in and we'll find the time to add a few more variations or uniques as well! If we do, a corrosion demon is probably first on the list to round those guys out.

Also something I mentioned in another thread - a lot goes into an individual enemy:

Things needed for a (unique) enemy

- concept

- model

- rig

- texture

- animations

- vfx

- sound fx

- UI icons

- research items & text based on the npc

- a weapon, item, armor or two based on the npc

- design

- coding

- playtesting

- balancing

- and a lot of iteration

The art is actually the easiest part for us right now. We've got a pretty low number of animations needed per character, Fredrick is an insane modeler, and Geoff is a beast at rigging. Design, coding, and iteration to make em FUN will be the biggest time investments.

So do I wish we could initially scope for more npcs? Sure! Am I stoked about our current lineup and getting them up and running to see how much emergent craziness they can wreck on the battlefield? Hells yes :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While most of Valiance's posts are the ravings of a madman, this one I can really agree with.

Madness is infectios ;D

enemies increase in hp and damage

Nein.

I don't want ever-growing health bars like in Borderlands or a JRPG where I'm fighting the same way, against the same palette-swapped enemy, it just takes longer for grindness sake. Atleast have multiple-enemy waves like in X-com, ME2, and most games so it's not just about winning a battle but enduring x battles and having enough health, arbalist bolts, etc. left to survive/win the final engagement.

What ah'd like to see, and can nae think of a game to point to as the successful example, is dramatically different AI based on the combinations of enemies in the field. So you're fighting the same enemies but how they behave changes based on what allies they have available and the actions of an enemy could even inform the player what other enemy types are liable to lay ahead.

Perhaps on their own spores immediately try to merge into a spawner because they know it's their most viable means of sucess but spores + a ranged fossil results in the spores burrowing underground and bursting out to tie-up heroes, increasing the chance to hit for the fossil and keeping the melee heroes away from it. A corrosion suicide-bomber on its' own charges the heroes but with a forgetfulness teleporter on its' side, will prime next to the forgetter, which teleswaps a hero next to the suicide-bomber to guarantee damage is taken next round.

Such differences would change the dynamic: are you avoiding the suicide bomber or chasing him so you can finish it before it primes and swaps or laying down AoE attacks so the AI keeps the forgetfulness and rust apart so they can't pull that maneuver, are you rushing forward to finish off little spores before they become spawners or are you carefully scouting ahead so a hero doesn't get alpha-struck by a burrowed spore + ranged fossil combo.

Same number of models and animations just more AI brogramming.

happy camper

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/363/f/7/star_control_syreen_captain_by_wickedwebart-d4km4ba.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chiming in on the thread:

In general, you want your enemies to fulfill roles: Minion, artillery, brute whatever. The less overlap between them the better... and as the thread has pointed out: Chess has only 7 pieces but it does a lot.

I was however sad not to see at least a "2 demons per family" symmetry going on -- this seemed like a given once the pictures started rolling, but that's just my completionist talking. Only one corrosion demon but two of everybody else seems like a seriously missed opportunity, and I hope that if some extra resources are discovered they can be applied to having some other kind of creature in that wheelhouse for the full 2-per family spread -- I think I could be happy about that. Hard to get a feel for a particular family's flavor if the family is a family of 1.

I will bow to the devs and their design document however. What I know about rigging modeling and budgeting for same is essentially zero, so if you say that animation and iteration time necessitates just these 7 guys, then OK I believe you. At least there's a lot of variety in there. The time killer isn't anything like the spawner, and this is good.

I think I remember on the teamstream someone saying that there might be 'upgraded' versions of certain creatures, which would go a long way towards variety. You know, regular spawner, foul spawner, weird spawner -- each of which may be subtly different in terms of powers while keeping to the same basic template of "long range artillery with a side order of controller". I didn't really see anything in there approximating a vanilla soldier demon or a lurker demon.

Let's see what our chesspieces are:

- Expendable Kamikaze Striker w/a side order of control (exploder)

- Hard Mid-Ranged Controller Mastermind (Forgetfulness mage)

- Tanking brute hit point sponge (forgetfulness brute)

- Long range artillery / controller (spawner)

- Harassing melee minion (grub)

- Ranged striker (bonethrower)

- Scary melee elite (timekiller)

Seems a bit light on melee baddies for a game in which people get up in people's business with swords a lot.

One thing I notice you don't have yet in the classic set of bad guy role tropes is a solid lurker. That is "a creature who specializes in stealth tactics and pouncing on and picking off guys who try to be heroes and wildcat it on their own". Ususally super dangerous one-on-one, easy to kill with a prepared party.

Proposed: CamoLurker (Corrosion?)

Function: Living traps that hide inside terrain features, terrorizing PCs and make them paranoid. Strong initial attack, moves into foot soldier role once discovered.

Description: Corrosion demon with an uncanny knack for seeping into and corrupting battlefield landscape from the inside out. Has the ability to mimic items or tiles in the environment, lurking stealthily inside rocks, trees and whanot and biding their time before pouncing on PCs. In essence, every tree, rock or table in the environment could be a secret "alien egg" just waiting for a chestburster to spring from it.

When disguised, this demon waits for PCs to draw close then opens confrontations with a terrain-rupturing surprise pounce attack that triggers on "demon overwatch" - ie. during the PC's move phase (unlike other demons). If successfully pounced, a unit will be immobilized inside the lurker, unable to move or attack at range while being dissolved by the corrosive acid inside their blankety innards. Lurkers have a small flagellum which they can use to punch other heroes attempting to free their comrades while they are dissolving a PC, but are not otherwise awesome fighters. If a lurker successfully kills a PC, that character is dissolved and the lurker attempts to hide and lurk again.

"Glancing blows" on lurkers who are trapping PCs inside them hurt the trapped person.

Has higher than normal stealth characteristics. On enemy movement phase, un-lurks, tries to move to a more advantageous piece of terrain closer to PCs, lurks again. When cornered, will fight gamely with their flagellum and maybe spit acid on people.

Maybe higher level lurkers have the ability to mimic terrain rather than just lurk inside existing terrain. "Waaaaait. Was that box there before?"

Can be easily discovered and exposed by blast/burst effects, like alchemist's ranged flasks. Suspect that that suspicious rock is secretly a clutch of lurking corrosion demons? Throw fire at it.

High level lurkers have the ability to convey the "lurking horror" genetic trait on PCs who took big damage while enveloped. This trait once acquired will cause a new lurker to suddenly rupture out of the chest of the infected PC anytime from 1 year to 40 years in the future from the time of the attack Obviously, this kills the PC.

"Lurking horror" is inheritable and passable to descendents. It may or may not be curable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I second AI playing off each others' powers. That alone will make the 7 enemy types play out in multiple methods. Couple that with variations of the 7 types (ideally with different powers/abilities not just palette swaps) and the bestiary will be big enough.

One thing that I didn't hear anything about was larger unique/hero/boss enemies. While I assume there will be, it would be nice to know what they are kicking around. Simply naming them? Additional abilities or HP? Larger scale? Unique models & animations?

Or will there simply be an elite tier of the enemies and they will serve the same function as captains on the battlefield?

Otherwise, they look cool, they already seem to have a complimentary role with each other and I can't wait to see all the different abilities the team will think up as they iterate. I have no problem with lots of different versions of an enemy type if they each have a distinct power/play-style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the game needs to have lots of enemy types. If you look at the original x-com, most of those enemies functioned in a very similar manner. Sure there are some unique abilities like flying, mind control, exploding on death, but snakemen vs sectoids vs mutons... not a big difference except accuracy and hp.

In the new x-com, each enemy has 1 unique ability, which is not that special. If massive chalice can give each enemy 2-3 unique abilities, then I think it will be just as good if not better in terms of tactical variety.

I personally suggest giving each enemy type one extra ability that only activates in certain conditions. This could be when it kills someone, when it eats a corpse, when it hides behind terrain, when it goes below 50% health, etc. These transition points make the battle dynamic, and if you trigger them accidentally then you might end up taking losses from a berserk monster or a sniper monster that had a chance to set up.

So basically, more monsters != better, intricate monsters = awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general I think that's what both Val and I were implying with an increase in enemy units. I'm pumped that we get so many options for our PC's but we were only concerned that with such a limited pool of enemies the variability of the first campaign might become stagnant let alone following playthroughs. It is very hard to script competent AI's. There are enormous studious which pour tons of money into it and still get a marginal product. Look at CIV 5, their combat AI is hardly worth playing aginst. I mean I do all the time because I am hopelessly addicted to CIV but that doesnt mean I enjoy it.

The ways of getting around the AI problem is what has been described above. First like Blood stated you can script pre-estblished combos that maximize the potential of computers units. The issue then becomes a question of balance. As blood also state if the AI is designed to to swap your highest valued unit into 3 primed suicide pumpkins this is undoubtedly an effective strategy both in the immediate battle and long term by wiping out your best character in the match and preventing him from siring progeny. However this is a terrible strategy because its a D* move. Getting your guys one shot by a min/maxing AI is less than fun. Some folks like this kind of challenge as it presents a very real danger to winning the game. To the casual player its a swift kick to the fun. For the puppetmaster players( who like to control all aspects of the game both in winning and losing) its enough to send them into apoplectic fit.

A second solution is what others including myself have suggested in a variation in the abilities any single enemy will have or use in a particular battle. This is not the same as having access to all abilities and just not using some through random chance but through willful restriction of those abilities before the match begins. This adds a great deal of "non random" randomness (if that makes any sense at all.) I know that pumpkin suicide demon CAN blow up or maybe he will use his pumpkin powers to stun my heroes, and not be able to explode at all this game. The same effect can be achieved by increasing the total number of enemies with discrete roles or abilities.

Since it appears that we will not get over 9000 demons I would be satisfied with either demons be allowed randomized access to their abilities or a progressively attaining abilities as the game goes on.

Forever your humble puppetmaster

TheMarinoMagic

P.S. The blob monster was not meant to be a parasitic demon not a supertank. It was supposed to gain strength at the expense of the heros it attached to simultaneously weakening them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have written tactical AI in a grid-based video game before. I never got a chance to really polish it up or teach it all the rules, but it is pretty easy to make an AI that is fun to play against.

Scripting individual behaviors is a great shortcut to use if you are short on time, but ideally you code the AI to understand the mechanics. I prefer to allow the AI to adjust its own sliders for what is important and what is a threat. Then it can look at all the tools it has and figure what is an effective action to take, not necessarily going through all the possible actions and picking the best one.

For example, lets say the player has a healer unit. The AI can see that and decide its high priority to avoid healing. It can focus fire on low-hp units and try to kill them outright. It can use forced movement abilities to get a target out of range of the healer, or perhaps to pull the healer out of LOS. It can try to stun the healer or kill the healer first. Just putting a little pressure on the healer, through damage over time, might be good enough. So as long as the AI is programmed to look at each game mechanic and evaluate it, the AI should behave in an interesting way. Throw in a bit of randomness so it doesn't always choose the same action in the same situation, and it should spice things up even across multiple play-throughs.

The point I am trying to make is that like you say, most games don't have the best tactical AI. I think that it is possible, and not too difficult to make an AI that

a) doesn't make stupid mistakes

b) is fun to play against

c) provides a moderate challenge without cheating/asymmetry

However, even if you have really well designed monsters, bad AI will detract from the game. Conversely, even with really bland monsters, having well done AI will make the combat fun and interesting.

One more key consideration regarding the AI: Will it be omniscient, like 2 players playing chess, or will it be realistic, with each creature having its own set of knowledge and making decisions based on its personality tendencies?

I think its still a little too early to start complaining/worrying about this stuff, lets see what the enemies actually can do first. Also rules like flanking, cover bonuses, aim variation for AOE attacks could all be just as important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hypothetical tele-bomber combo I presented isn't supposed to be a hard cap to which there is no answer. All cadence options should have hero option counters. This could simply be a matter of balancing numbers (a single suicide-bomb won't kill you, you do enough damage to kill them before they kill you if you target/position right with the correct heroes, your hero will probably be in critical condition long enough to save) or a matter of tactics (you may have a move left to draw back when you see a teledemon to avoid getting telefragged, stealth could allow you to approach without them seeing you in the arbalist gille suite or alchemist invisibility potion, saving action points to get off a hit if teleported, positioning another hero nearby to benefit from the increased LoS of the teleporation and/or gain an overwatch attack upon the cadence monster's reveal, having heroes close enough to each other the teleporting-in cadence monster will get jumped) or a matter of match balance, as in the teledemon combo is very powerful but if the cadence monsters are caught out-of-position, separated (caber attacks), or one half of them's killed they're much weaker and easier. This forward-loads/conditionally places the difficulty.

There're games with surprising amounts of AI sense, like in Halo, enemies can actually detect vibarations, like boxes knocked around by explosions. In rage dudes will drag their injured comrades away. GTA has its' ghosted versions of players to race against in practice modes. Why not some combination of genetic algorithyms and recording player actions which makes the cadence tailored to countering your playstyle, forcing an endless back-and-forth evolution?

Ah reckon it's an indication of the difficulty of doing so but ah feel AI is a spoke on the wheel of game design which has been neglected in favor of cutscenes, higher poly counts, and voice acting. Maybe it's because if the enemy's too smart they'd just trounce you. But ah reckon if the player has tools available to win that make the match out to 50/50 in computer vs computer matches and playtests then the challenge is justified. N00bs can alwas dial the difficulty down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think the game needs to have lots of enemy types. If you look at the original x-com, most of those enemies functioned in a very similar manner. Sure there are some unique abilities like flying, mind control, exploding on death, but snakemen vs sectoids vs mutons... not a big difference except accuracy and hp.

In the new x-com, each enemy has 1 unique ability, which is not that special. If massive chalice can give each enemy 2-3 unique abilities, then I think it will be just as good if not better in terms of tactical variety.

I personally suggest giving each enemy type one extra ability that only activates in certain conditions. This could be when it kills someone, when it eats a corpse, when it hides behind terrain, when it goes below 50% health, etc. These transition points make the battle dynamic, and if you trigger them accidentally then you might end up taking losses from a berserk monster or a sniper monster that had a chance to set up.

So basically, more monsters != better, intricate monsters = awesome.

Yes, I think if there are 7 enemy types which are really varied, then that's gonna be as good as twice as many with less variety. Possibly better, because I think it's a good design skill to be able to fully explore within certain limits. I'm interested in the sorts of varied scenarios they can come up with in this set before they go back to the enemy pool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 enemies disappointed me a bit when i saw the stream. but i think it will work

i have been playing enemy within recently which has like 20 enemies. and they all have some flavor and cool abilities. but most of them are basically things that shoot at you. flying thing that shoots at you, skinny thing that shoots at you, bullet sponge that shoots at you, angry looking thing that shoots at you etc.

and for all these enemies xcom throws at you the only consequence is your soldiers die-ing. i think the best enemies in x com are the melee ones and the psychic ones. berserker- gets closer every time you shoot it. cyrisalid-multiply like mad by killing your troops and kills you fast, seeker- invisible sneaks up and immobilizes your soldiers, etherial- maind control and disabling of your team. those enemies have a strength you x com soldiers cant match (you can out shoot any alien but you cant ever out multiply them or out melee them {you can out mind control them}) and that makes them fun. for me x-com's rouges galley is 17 shooty aliens with varying hp lvls and 5 interesting game changing enemies (unfortunately those 5 arnt late game enemies mostly).

massive challace has the right idea. 7 enemies that arnt just damage values with hp bars.

the spore alien seems so cool. it might not be dangerous ealy in a fight but if you leave it too long you have an unstoppable hoard to deal with. or a family infected with spores for all time. talk about consequences.

a monster that reverses the lvling process?!?! (forgetfulness) talk about needing a flexible battle plan. "well Dave the caber jack forgot how to tank and Luke my sniper doesn't remember how to head shot.... new strategy necessary".

coruption demons cause huge damage and de-buff if they get close by exploding...

a fossile demon that you just cant seem to kill...

a demon that binks your hero's around the map?

in a battle what do you focus? kill the living bombs before they get u? take that hit but stop the spores before they reach critical lvls/infect all your heroes? have everyone focus the constantly healing and highly armored fossil demon? kite the giant hulk like forgetfulness titan? all the while hoping you hold on to the skills you need to win and that other demons don screw with your unit positioning...... those 7 demons sound much better than 20 different aliens that can shoot at you n xcom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, I think demonic abilities and tactics should help make them feel pretty unique. I look forward to learning more in the next few live streams!

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm happy with what they are doing now, but what about bosses? I've watched all the team streams, but I can't remember what DF's plans for bosses are (if it has even been mentioned at all).

I'm hoping that along with these 7 demons, there is the possibility of 2-3 boss demons that are larger in size (because big bosses feel good to kill) and have skill sets that compliment some of the other demons (much like they are doing with the other demons).

Something along the lines of a Demon Taskmaster (focuses on its interplay between lesser demons, a support of sorts, possibly allowing demons a special ability ((or buff)) if a Taskmaster is present on the field), Demonic Siege Engine (a unit that is seen mainly in keep defense missions), and the leader of the entire demonic invasion force (or the entire demon race, you know, "main booossss fight!").

It's something I'd love to see for many reasons. With their goal of making each demon unique and tactical in the sense of the interplay between demons, I'd love to see DF's take on boss units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stimpy you eediot!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/speedyboris/renandstimpy/hermit-27-300x228_zps0f725216.jpg

There are no more demons. They've revealed the number and current designs of the demons. They'll be updated with better models, animations, effects, and the functionality needed for combat (status icons, functioning health bars and damage calculations, AI determining movement and actions, abilities, etc.). There are no boss demons or siege scenarios in the works.

The closest equivalent to a boss demon are the more powerful demons, like the forgetfulness mage, akin to the etheral from X-com. The nearest comparison to a siege scenario are the keep raids/attacks.

The team could, without increasing the total model count or number of demons, give some randomly-apportioned unique traits to demons to make them more distinct. Like back in the day the original Diablo had its' procedurally generated special demons which may resist spells, move faster, or some other tweak. There were color-coded (by the name) categories of demon rarity, akin to item rarity, and the rarer the demon type called for the more special attributes could be stacked on it.

This's the cheapest way I know of the team could make the game seem to've a wider variety of enemies than it does. It'd be important if they did go such a route that they limited the amount of unique traits per encounter based on level, so you don't end up facing the all-madden cadence team your first deployment, and to communicate to we players how these demons are different. Even simple text reading, "+50% damage" floating over its' head, possibly only appearing while you hover your cursor over the model, would be informative. Otherwise, the design would allow for confused and frustrated players struggling to discern a rhyme scheme to the way a demon type works, ignorant all along that they've been fighting variants of the same type.

There could even be an increasingly-more-difficult wave-spawning survival mode and you could see your equivalent of bosses, high-buffed-and-specialized-over-the-default cadence monsters, there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just give me an Uber-Etherial style mask or differentiating prop on a few of these big'uns and call them something different in the text box. Forgetfulness lord, etc. or something of the kind. Maybe throw some new powers or unique abilities.

It's nice to want things, but you know... Kickstarter. Hopefully the game'll do well enough to merit expansion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's cool if they stick with their guns on the 7, but my mind keeps going back to FFT. What are the fights I remember the most? The fight on the roof, the fight with the old knight, the fight with the big-round demon preacher and the fight with the angel at the end. I know most people will have different memories of FFT, but for me, those fights stick out the most.

Now I'm not saying there absolutely needs to be new models (for bosses) for me to enjoy MC. I could see a reskin system working just fine and I'd probably be happy with it. But I am interested in how they plan on doing (or if they are doing) boss fights in MC. As they haven't really touched on this subject (bosses, not models) in any of the streams or here, it would be nice to hear their thoughts on the subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's cool if they stick with their guns on the 7, but my mind keeps going back to FFT. What are the fights I remember the most? The fight on the roof, the fight with the old knight, the fight with the big-round demon preacher and the fight with the angel at the end. I know most people will have different memories of FFT, but for me, those fights stick out the most.

Now I'm not saying there absolutely needs to be new models (for bosses) for me to enjoy MC. I could see a reskin system working just fine and I'd probably be happy with it. But I am interested in how they plan on doing (or if they are doing) boss fights in MC. As they haven't really touched on this subject (bosses, not models) in any of the streams or here, it would be nice to hear their thoughts on the subject.

I feel like sometime ago John mentioned something one way or the other about bosses without new models, but I can't remember which team stream that was maybe in, or even if that maybe just isn't me making junk up from miss-remembering.

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like sometime ago John mentioned something one way or the other about bosses without new models, but I can't remember which team stream that was maybe in, or even if that maybe just isn't me making junk up from miss-remembering.

Smiles

I thought so too, but looking back I can't seem to find it. I know you're on for most (at least some, but seeing as my problem is memory, I could have that wrong too) of the streams, if the chance presents itself I'd appreciate if you brought this up (thoughts on bosses, re-skins or something else?) to the team. It's really the only "concern" I have at the moment. If you could really even call it that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the opportunity presents itself, I'll give it a mention (assuming Brad or John doesn't wander in and lay down so more info in the meantime).

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that creative use of cosmetic widgets, auras, and palette swaps are the best we are probably going to get at this point. It'd be nice to see unique boss monsters with unique models--a la FFT--but if we're stuck with 7 base cadence types, I doubt there's money or time to crank out unique one-shot boss models, as awesome as they might be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this